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Author Topic: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School  (Read 6539 times)

Zrk2

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Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« on: November 14, 2010, 12:25:31 am »

About a week ago two of my friends realized that the school had scheduled "One Night Out" on Rememberance Day. While I have nothing against One Night Out (It is where a bunch of kids sleep in the gym and do a tour of our downtown to get a better idea of homelessness) itself, I don't think it should be on Rememberance Day, that is rather disrespectful. So my two friends posted 8 and 1/2 by 11 sheets of paper politely asking that it be moved off of Rememberance Day. So they got called down to the office and told off. They are not allowed to post sheets of paper in the school without the consent of "the administration" (As called by my Vice Principal). So their parents were called and told about the issue and supposedly gotten in trouble.

The next day I was very upset about this as not only is it disrespectful of veterans but it also violates freedom of speech. They were told that they were no longer allowed to discuss it as "the administration" had decided it would not be in the best interest of the school. OH! This is a public school in Ontario, Cananda. So I went to the office and talked to the VP about it. He told me it was not open to discussion as the principal had decided to have it then so the possibility of it being moved would not be discussed. My two friends then went and posted more posters protesting it. One was suspended for three days for posting them and the other, who is an air cadet was suspended for five because he left when they tried to get him in trouble again.

Any thoughts or opinions on this issue?

I think posters that conform with the code of conduct and are about issues involving the school should be allowed to be posted on the school bulletin boards.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 12:42:57 am »

I'm not sure why emulating hobos on Rememberance Day is disrespectful in the first place.

In any case, there's three parts to your issue.

The first is that they posted something on the bulletin board without permission. It doesn't sound very unreasonable to require approval to post announcements in the school. So on that note, I think you and your friends don't really have a case.

The second is whether it's alright to discuss the issue by posting fliers, which is more or less "If they'd asked for permission would it have been granted?" I suspect allowing anyone with a bone to pick to put up a piece of paper espousing their view would result in very crowded, politicized hallways, so I'm inclined to think that again, it's not really the place.

The third is whether discussing the issue should be allowed at all. This seems pretty reasonable, but if you're not involved in the project in any way, it's hard to justify too much clout- so sure, you can discuss it, but other than giving the VP your recommendation, how much power are you expecting just from attending the school and having an opinion?


So ultimately, your idealogical argument isn't actually explained, and the three practical issues preceding it mostly eclipse it's validity anyway. This is less about disrespecting veterans and freedom of speech than it is about proper channels.
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Eagleon

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 12:45:53 am »

That's what you get for living in that them hippie commie socialistland herp.

The one legitimate reason I think they have for removing posters is if they're in an area that needs to be free of them, or if it's for something else(edit) the board they're posting on is for something else. Otherwise, it's ridiculous that they're suspending people for this.

The argument itself I don't find a problem with, though if it's a national thing (One Night Out, that is), it might be difficult or impractical to reschedule. You might argue that neither detracts from each other's importance - I don't think most veterans are for increasing homelessness, or letting them fend for themselves completely for that matter, and many I know find that to be a more important issue. Have you talked to any vets about it? Maybe they can come up with a way for your school to have something memorable for both.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 12:48:11 am by Eagleon »
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Zrk2

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 12:54:04 am »

I have nothing against one night out and realize that it likely cannot be rescheduled this year, but for future years it could easily be moved, also any other day would work just as well for looking at the issue of homelessness, I just think a different day would be a more logical place to place it. As for asking permission to post flyers I have attended this school for more than two years now and have never heard anyrthing about getting permission to post flyers before.

Re Irony Owl: Is it not the purpose of schools to promote political awareness? Is that not one of the goals teachers and polticians are constantly discussing?

Re Eaglon: I do not know any veterans I could talk to about it. however somehow my grandfather got into the local wing of the royal canadian something or other. I am under the impression that there are veterans who attend it regularly so I will tell him about it and see what the veterans he knows think of it.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 01:01:28 am »

Why do you think it's disrespectful?
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IronyOwl

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 01:07:04 am »

As for asking permission to post flyers I have attended this school for more than two years now and have never heard anyrthing about getting permission to post flyers before.
Well, have you ever checked? I suppose this could be a case of not wanting any opposition to school decisions, but it could also be an attempt to avoid every petition and statement making it onto the walls.

Re Irony Owl: Is it not the purpose of schools to promote political awareness? Is that not one of the goals teachers and polticians are constantly discussing?
It's an admirable goal, but I'm not sure encouraging anything at all politics-related is a good way to do that. I mean, do you want various propaganda posters all over the walls and advocates ranting in the halls? Your friends' posters were relevant to a school decision with potential relation to a potentially political issue (veterans), but I don't think that's quite the same as "promoting political awareness." Or at least, there are probably better ways to encourage a similar effect.
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Zrk2

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 01:15:29 am »

Re Cheetar: I feel that Rememberance Day is about rmembering the sacrifices made by veterans and being thakful for it. Other events should not be scheduled on it as they would distract people from the issue, also there are 364 other days that could be used to look into these issues, but only one is Rememberance Day. If it was scheduled on a different day then both issues would be able to be explored in greater depth on their respected days.

Re IronyOwl: This was a sheet of paper with a picture of a poppy on it and the words "Move One Night Out off of Nov. 11!" Simple sheets of paper that conform with the code of conduct and relate directly to school events should be allowed to be posted in a public school, were it private the administration would definitely be allowed to say no.

Also there is a little thing called civil disobedience.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 01:33:59 am »

Re Cheetar: I feel that Rememberance Day is about rmembering the sacrifices made by veterans and being thakful for it. Other events should not be scheduled on it as they would distract people from the issue, also there are 364 other days that could be used to look into these issues, but only one is Rememberance Day. If it was scheduled on a different day then both issues would be able to be explored in greater depth on their respected days.
Not quite, unless Rememberance Day is the only other day of note worth anything. Hell, school's not even in session all those days.

So yes, they had a lot of options, but not nearly as many as that.

Re IronyOwl: This was a sheet of paper with a picture of a poppy on it and the words "Move One Night Out off of Nov. 11!" Simple sheets of paper that conform with the code of conduct and relate directly to school events should be allowed to be posted in a public school, were it private the administration would definitely be allowed to say no.
I suppose, but then they'd have to allow all sorts of silly things so long as they were in some way school related.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Eagleon

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 01:51:22 am »

I suppose, but then they'd have to allow all sorts of silly things so long as they were in some way school related.
How inconvenient. Why can't they just follow our pre-grooved tracks and move in an orderly fashion, with no thought of their own? This is pretty much The Wall in a nutshell jeeze. I'm pretty sure schools can handle putting up a few bulletin boards for students to use freely. Get one of the long wall-tracks that colleges use in their hallways. Problem solved forever.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 03:44:08 am »

So they were told they couldn't post the shit, and got a slap on the wrist, then went and did it again, and were actually punished? There's a valuable lesson to be learned in that: when someone with the authority to royally fuck you up tells you not to do something, don't fucking do it. The world doesn't care who's in the right, all that matters is they have power, and you don't. School isn't just about the predominantly useless shit they make you learn, it's about instilling the discipline and ability to learn in the first place, and to give you an object lesson in why you don't fucking ignore orders from someone with direct authority over you, regardless of who's in the right.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 03:49:16 am »

 ???

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Eagleon

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2010, 04:09:21 am »

Yes, let's obey all authority always because that never turned out poorly. I don't even need to name the law I'm invoking here the connotations are so obvious.

Here's another equally valid approach to life - if someone tells you to do something, threatens you with consequences if you don't, and you think they're completely full of shit, spit in their face, laugh, and tell them exactly why they're wrong. You'll be punished, oh yes, but you'll also enjoy being a smug righteous bastard, just like the person you laughed at.

Alternatively you can deal with people rationally and as equals, developing the social skills to influence those in authority with reason and peace. I mean, nothing can ever change ever and they're all out to get you, but at least you can make some friends along the way.

(Seriously, Pseudononymous, why the bitter? That's some grade-A accidentally a walnut shell bitter. )
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 04:14:20 am by Eagleon »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2010, 04:14:04 am »

I find the ordeal that started it pointless, and frankly, I don't think that it's a good idea to make a pointless and doomed stand like those kids did. That being said, I don't agree with the punishment that fell on their heads either.

And TBH I find Pseudonymous statement puzzling, as he's  the one who usually advocates to spit in the face of The Man and nevermind the consequences...
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2010, 07:12:37 am »

Yes, let's obey all authority always because that never turned out poorly. I don't even need to name the law I'm invoking here the connotations are so obvious.

Here's another equally valid approach to life - if someone tells you to do something, threatens you with consequences if you don't, and you think they're completely full of shit, spit in their face, laugh, and tell them exactly why they're wrong. You'll be punished, oh yes, but you'll also enjoy being a smug righteous bastard, just like the person you laughed at.
It's a highly conditional matter, and like most things, there are circumstances where opposition to the established power is the right choice, but (almost always) only when you have power of your own to fall back on, and only when the cause is something more meaningful than "act like a hobo night" falling on the same day as a holiday that, to be perfectly honest, I've never heard or seen mentioned anywhere but this forum in the past week (being American might have something to do with that, as I gather its an international holiday and we have other holidays of the same nature that presumably eclipse it).

Perhaps history sometimes needs martyrs, but they accomplish nothing for themselves, and only help those who use their sacrifice to their own ends* (except in those cases where the "martyrdom" in question isn't fatal, and merely inconvenient (in which case it can't properly be called "martyrdom", since that has much stronger connotations)) who survive to exploit* the injustice for sympathy for their cause. Much wiser to be the one who can exploit* the sacrifices of others to further the cause, and wiser still to be, or at least give the appearance of being, one with a leveler head who can do so more insidiously, changing the opposition's behavior from within, pointing out the bad publicity that comes from making martyrs of your enemies and whatnot.

And if one may respond "but if everyone swallowed their pride and payed lip service to tyrants, no change would ever come about", I can only say that swallowing one's pride and giving the appearance of compliance or agreement is not a Human thing to do, unless the matter in question is not terribly important to you, and so there will always be people foolhardy enough to do it, and that there are usually better ways to serve your cause than making a martyr of yourself. Which brings me to:

Quote
Alternatively you can deal with people rationally and as equals, developing the social skills to influence those in authority with reason and peace. I mean, nothing can ever change ever and they're all out to get you, but at least you can make some friends along the way.
In other words, swallowing your pride and behaving diplomatically, rather than giving in to anger or your overinflated ego (as the case may be). Which is not what they did. They deliberately antagonized the "oppressive" authority, which in this case happened to be the most trigger happy breed of tyrant: petty bureaucrats, and school officials no less! And I cannot imagine they were too diplomatic in dealing with them either, I know their type, having been that type back in highschool.

Quote
(Seriously, Pseudononymous, why the bitter? That's some grade-A accidentally a walnut shell bitter. )
Huh? I don't read that as bitter... hostile maybe, but not significantly so. If it's all the "fucking"s, those are just intensives to further highlight the most salient points.

And TBH I find Pseudonymous statement puzzling, as he's  the one who usually advocates to spit in the face of The Man and nevermind the consequences...
What? The only political things I remember having said have been arguing in favor of benevolent authority (public healthcare, government run infrastructure, possibly economic regulations and progressive taxation, though I can't recall if I've bothered with that here), or denouncing Israel for the whole shooting/blowing up/dropping white phosphorous on kids thing. And commentary on why Anarchism works, but only in small, primitive groups, being unworkable in modern society with its high populations and wondrous technology, I suppose... I try to stay out of political discussions, but sometimes a particular topic is one I care about, or I just can't stand the way the discussion is going and have to voice my opinion; back in my political science class my first year of college, at least half the classes ended with me shouting at one person in particular across the room, after staying silent for most of the class, simply because I couldn't stand letting her bullshit go unchallenged any longer. Hilariously, not once did the professor object to it, judging by his expression and things he said, either he agreed with what I had to say or felt that loudly interrupting someone was a form of healthy debate.


*Note that while I use terms like "exploit" and "their own ends", which I realize have negative connotations, I don't mean to cast those to whom I'm referring in a Machiavellian light, or imply that their personal involvement with the movement they support is inherently selfish, only that they and their cause benefit more from craftier and more levelheaded actions than doomed expressions of opposition.
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Muz

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Re: Rememberance Day, Freedom of Speech, and My High School
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2010, 11:47:08 am »

My two cents...

You should've gone through the proper channels. Instead of placing posters, directly ask the organizers to move the date. They probably didn't notice that it overlapped with Rememberance Day.

The freedom of speech argument is weak. Under that logic, you can say that graffiti violates freedom of speech.
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