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Author Topic: Socialism & Communism  (Read 34753 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #240 on: November 18, 2010, 08:15:43 pm »

Just get it over with and destroy all of humanity, because it apparently enjoys owning things, and this is also apparently terrible?

Not owning things, no.  But I'm sure there is a limit to the amount of luxury a person is capable of experiencing, and there is no possible explanation for hoarding beyond this limit than for the ability to exert influence over others... which is quite frankly terrible in my opinion.  We basically live in debt to megalomaniacs, who can all afford every ounce of PR necessary for it to appear otherwise.  Megalomania is fun to joke about, but in the real world I'm not so much ok with it.  It baffles me that other people are.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Realmfighter

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #241 on: November 18, 2010, 08:20:14 pm »

We have not, and will never reach the peak of luxury, there will always be more things, and newer things and older things that have become luxurious again.

Also, there is no Megalomaniac ruling the world, pulling all our string and laughing at our inability to know or care who he or she is. Even if there was, why get rid of them? Happiness in Slavery, as I like to say.
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

Eagle_eye

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #242 on: November 18, 2010, 09:04:09 pm »

better to live a day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep...
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Realmfighter

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #243 on: November 18, 2010, 09:05:53 pm »

Really?

Because I quite enjoy life, enough even to give up being a lion for a day.

Unless your talking about what kind of transformation curse you want used on you.
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

PenguinOverlord

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #244 on: November 18, 2010, 09:11:17 pm »

we just agreed on anarchism and feudalism
socialism is not part of the equation
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SalmonGod

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #245 on: November 18, 2010, 09:14:22 pm »

Also, there is no Megalomaniac ruling the world, pulling all our string and laughing at our inability to know or care who he or she is. Even if there was, why get rid of them? Happiness in Slavery, as I like to say.

No there is no one megalomaniac ruling the world.  It's a class of wealth that makes up a very small minority of the population, and the emergence of that class and their coordination in maintaining themselves is an emergent behavior of the system as I see it.

Lets assume the planet starts from scratch.  Every human being is given an equal chunk of the planet to call their own.  Everyone has to trade whatever they have for whatever they don't have.  Those who are ambitious and leverage their property more aggressively will accumulate more than those who are more content and generous.  As they accumulate more, they will gain more leverage... snowballing the effect.  Throw in successive generations of people who are born into the world without having been part of that original distribution of equal chunks.  All they have to offer is themselves.  Some property owners will make use of those people more aggressively than others, and continue to accumulate more and more.  Over time, those who are greedy will consume those who are not.  This upper class will continue to dwindle as it competes with itself, getting more and more vicious as it goes, but it will also cooperate to prevent competition arising from below.  This isn't because humans are innately greedy or any such thing.  It's because the system is designed to reward those who are greedy and turns into an environment which selects for such a disposition.

To relate this to the modern real world, take the state of politics in America.  Two parties compete viciously with eachother, at least superficially, and between them they have the support of all major corporate interests.  At the same time, those two parties work together to control the platform of political competition, as can be seen with the major televised political debates.  The debates are funded and operated completely by the two major parties, and they hire security for the debates who are specifically instructed to threaten with arrest any third party candidate who even tries to come near the premises, even carrying an invitiation.  There is video out there of Nader confronting this situation outside of the 2008 debates, and I would link to it if I weren't at work.

And digging even deeper, there is a rich history of wealthy rivals cooperating to eliminate rising threats to their collective power, from strikebreakers during the industrial revolution to the dirty wars in South America.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

PenguinOverlord

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #246 on: November 18, 2010, 09:16:34 pm »

gah communists
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Realmfighter

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #247 on: November 18, 2010, 09:21:18 pm »

We are humans. Competition is in our blood. No body would go for this.The whole point of what your saying is to protect people from other people who have an unfair advantage of them because the have more money and resources. But people don't need to be protected. They don't want to be protected. There is Nothing more tyrannical then overthrowing a system that you feel is unjust with everyone else disagreeing with you.
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

SalmonGod

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #248 on: November 18, 2010, 09:22:56 pm »

gah communists

So long as there's no state involved, because as I've said that just skips to the end of the game where all resources end up in one centrally controlled pool.  Modern capitalism is pretty close to this point.  The only difference is the competition here is purely political, but with all the same rammifications.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Leafsnail

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #249 on: November 18, 2010, 09:23:58 pm »

We are humans. Competition is in our blood. No body would go for this.The whole point of what your saying is to protect people from other people who have an unfair advantage of them because the have more money and resources. But people don't need to be protected. They don't want to be protected. There is Nothing more tyrannical then overthrowing a system that you feel is unjust with everyone else disagreeing with you.
Seems like quite a generalisation.  Communists would probably agree.
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Realmfighter

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2010, 09:26:01 pm »

Without money, or credit, where would all your nice things come from? Where would the science come from? Where would the Television shows you watch for hours a day? The internet?
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

SalmonGod

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #251 on: November 18, 2010, 09:27:56 pm »

We are humans. Competition is in our blood. No body would go for this.The whole point of what your saying is to protect people from other people who have an unfair advantage of them because the have more money and resources. But people don't need to be protected. They don't want to be protected. There is Nothing more tyrannical then overthrowing a system that you feel is unjust with everyone else disagreeing with you.

I'm a competitive person, but I don't engage by choice in any form of competition where life & death or quality of life hinges.  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm alone, and there's nothing more tyrannical than organizing bloodsport with universal mandatory participation under threat of imprisonment or death.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

SalmonGod

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #252 on: November 18, 2010, 09:31:37 pm »

Without money, or credit, where would all your nice things come from? Where would the science come from? Where would the Television shows you watch for hours a day? The internet?

It would come from having the freedom to spend all my time attending to my personal needs and interests in cooperation and compromise with my community without having to first spend at least half of my waking life catering to the material interests of those who hold power over me.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Realmfighter

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #253 on: November 18, 2010, 09:34:54 pm »

I'm a competitive person, but I don't engage by choice in any form of competition where life & death or quality of life hinges.  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm alone, and there's nothing more tyrannical than organizing bloodsport with universal mandatory participation under threat of imprisonment or death.
Whaa.....

What Life or Death competitions? What bloodsports are you talking about?

It would come from having the freedom to spend all my time attending to my personal needs and interests in cooperation and compromise with my community without having to first spend at least half of my waking life catering to the material interests of those who hold power over me.
So, without having to work for Da Man and getting half your time back, you could reverse engineer The Internet, TV, Rubber, Concrete, Smelting, Music and every other technological, skilled or labor intensive thing that you could possibly want?
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We may not be as brave as Gryffindor, as willing to get our hands dirty as Hufflepuff, or as devious as Slytherin, but there is nothing, nothing more dangerous than a little too much knowledge and a conscience that is open to debate

x2yzh9

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Re: Socialism & Communism
« Reply #254 on: November 18, 2010, 09:35:09 pm »

Just got my books on Socialism & Communism. My sister looked interested in it so I told her she could borrow the one on Communism while I read about socialism.
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