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[x2yzh9]

Sounds like a mix between Communism and Socialism. Leaning moreso towards Socialism, but nonetheless.

[Chattox]

While it is certainly hilarious to watch their little societies fall to pieces once the shops open and the rent collector comes around, I honestly don't know what kind of economic system Dwarves use.  I mean, you've got globally fixed prices, assigned-labor, private ownership, fixed rent, an aristocracy that can appropriate any unclaimed items they find without paying, free universal healthcare, and absolutely no social security.  It's a pretty baffling little system.

And they would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling hammerdwarfs and their magma!

[Aqizzar]

Sounds like a mix between Communism and Socialism. Leaning moreso towards Socialism, but nonetheless.

We usually think about economics as a continuum of something like - Communism->Socialism->Capitalist or something, where you go from absolute state power to absolute business power.  Dwarf Fortress isn't really anywhere on that line, it's like half of Communism and half of Capitalism but misses Socialism completely, which a dash of Monarchial Fascism thrown in for flavor.

[Luke_Prowler]

While DF economy is pretty close to medieval times, with prices determined entirely by the whims of the nobility and just general extortion of the serfs, it bares as much resembles modern day Capitalism in the same way razor wire resembles floss.

[Chattox]

I'd have to agree, it's a fantastic working model of how well communism can work when it comes to each dwarf having the food, shelter and entertainment s/he needs, but then you have the upper class, the bourgeoisie, if you will, demanding that they sleep on only the finest adamantine beds and that's where it tends to lean to capitalism. I couldn't really assign the dwarven economy to one side of the fence or the other since as soon as I turn it on everything goes to hell and suddenly everyones dead, insane, homeless or all three.

[Aqizzar]

The DF economy isn't capitalism or communism. It's surrealism. Like you got a bunch of poorly-educated middle schoolers to brainstorm for three hours about what they think should be rewarded, provided for, and whatnot in an economy, and then went ahead and imposed those things.

Yeah, I can't believe I forgot about it, but it's pretty similar to a "perfect" economy me and a partner had to come up with in the fifth grade.  Makes a lot of sense, when you remember how intelligent Dwarves are in every other aspect of their society.

Although I'm sure Senators and pet projects probably have something to do with it, the stats you're using lose grip when put in context.

This is basically my point.  I don't have any problem with an argument being picked apart with specifics and counter arguments.  Like I said, my problem is when people just use sayings to shoot down an argument without ever addressing it, because apparently Numbers=Lies when you don't already agree with the position being supported.

[nbonaparte]

I barely read this thread because I know what it has in it. A bunch of bickering until nikov shows up, then even more bickering, followed by nikov leaving. I want to differentiate social and economic socialism. I'm for economic socialism (if Adam Smith is -1 and Karl Marx is 1, I'd go for -0.2), but socially, I like libertarianism.

And then I'll just point to the rankings for standard of living. Norway and Sweden compete for first and look at their economies.

[Luke_Prowler]

Is Sweden the one that has, like, no taxes?

[Leafsnail]

Is Sweden the one that has, like, no taxes?

No, you're thinking of Switzerland.  Sweden is the country that gets pointed to as a model socialist nation.

[Zrk2]

1. The DF economy is to the real economy is as poison ivy is to an oak tree.
2. No, taxes in Sweden are even higher than here (Canada in my case), which also has higher taxes than America. I went to America and was like "WTF no food tax? Awesome!"
3. What you describe is basically socialism, see:
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/redefining_the_political_spectru.htm
Especially the Nolan Chart, it is accurate, if simplistic
4. Any economy dictated by someone can never be perfect as it is fundamentally flawed if someone has the power to arbitrarily dick around with prices. Ass licking by investors would lead to its' complete collapse fairly quickly.

[Luke_Prowler]

Thanks for the correction, I don't normally pay attention to all this economic mumbo-jumbo.

[Leafsnail]

3. What you describe is basically socialism, see:
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/redefining_the_political_spectru.htm
Especially the Nolan Chart, it is accurate, if simplistic

The thing I don't like about it is that it takes 2 things involving the word "liberty" and then puts itself right at the top of both fields.  Basically, it's a political viewpoint field designed to make libertarianism look as good as possible, which isn't really very useful.  Heck, the article itself goes on to say

Both the Political Compass and Nolan systems present the same fallacy, and project similar wrong ideas.

[SalmonGod]

I'm an anarchist.  I think both sides of the scale are bullshit.  In fact, I prefer to take a step back and look at the scale itself as a single object.  The dichotomy is meaningless.  They're just two sides of the same thing.

Communism: Property is owned by the state.
Capitalism: Property is owned by individuals.

These are their basic definitions.  All the other specifics you can bring up are either common tendencies or unique qualities of one example of that system.  Capitalism in America doesn't taste the same as capitalism in other places, and it's the same with communism.  Most people's perspectives are just skewed because they grow up with one flavor of the word, and cannot imagine that word having any other flavor.  It easily turns into black & white thinking.

But these differences are nothing but flavors.  You may prefer ketchup over mustard, but you're being force-fed the same soylent green.  Everything you want or need is controlled by someone else who decides the conditions you must live by to partake in those resources.  Call it government or a "free" market.  I don't care.  In capitalism wealth consolidates until it's all controlled by the hands of a few.  Communism only jumps straight to this end conclusion.

If authority figures could be trusted to have honest intentions, this might not be so bad.  They could actually facilitate cohesion among humanity. 

But since when do honest intentions win elections or generate profit?... yeah...

[Realmfighter]

So what your saying is we will never be not bullshit if people keep having things other people want.

If we do get rid of that problem, we could no longer call ourselves human.

[nbonaparte]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_scarcity