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[Jackrabbit]

Armok, you need to get your head round the fact that the majority (I'd say all but I haven't asked around) of people here don't think the way you do or agree with you. That's only an issue from your perspective. Still, interested to see Kael's response.

Also, don't you constantly bang on about how everyone needs to dedicate their lives to preventing suffering and doing good? And yet now you're claiming you shouldn't bother avoiding suffering or trying to create happiness? You've insulted people for the crime of not donating their entire pay check barring what they need to stay alive to charity. I'm getting some conflicting messages here.

[KaelGotDwarves]

@Armok:
Mining for fish- It's just a joke.

ALSO: I have seen plenty of arguments for how Buddhist practice makes you suffer less and be happy, but no cases WHY you should bother to avoid suffering or seek out happiness! Why should I care about such arbitrary facts about my brain? (I actually don't know how you'd solve that riddle without concepts like evolutionary psychology, universal computation and utility functions. It'd be interesting to see.)

Well, you mean if you're happy the way you are, why should you seek happiness or a way out of suffering?

The upfront and practical answer is, "if someone is perfectly happy being miserable, then so be it". Chances are they will cause others around them to be miserable as well with unskillful actions. We should forgive them for such views.

Practically no one is truly happy. In fact, everyone is suffering. There is pain everywhere. If you are happy one moment, you are merely waiting for the pendulum to swing the other way to sadness, and it always does. Nothing is permanent. Feelings are impermanent. The self is impermanent. We should treat others with love, compassion, and respect not because it automatically comes back to us (like people believe with kamma/karma) but because the nature of the universe is that intentional action has long-reaching effects that we can barely begin to comprehend. That's what the Buddha taught over 2500 years ago. When we come closer to nibbana/nirvana, the goal of enlightenment and understanding, we can act in such ways that are for the benefit of all without causing suffering for others. And note: you don't have to be a Buddhist to understand this. It's not about defining and separating through labels, but about wisdom and an understanding that brings us to compassion and right actions.

All you really need to be happy is the basics: food, water, air, shelter, and an understanding of the self and the way things are. Unfortunately, in our society we get caught up with all this stuff.

It's one thing to know, but another to understand. What the Buddha taught is simple: you can find happiness and create a long lasting happiness for others through certain steps, through training of the self and mind - through diligence and practice, the way and the discipline.

If you don't figure it out in this life, you will eventually- that's the gist of it.

[Virex]

Erm, not to be annoying, but isn't the gist of your post that to create happiness you need others more then you need yourself? Because I would label contact as one of the basic necessities as well.

[KaelGotDwarves]

No. I think the main gist is that we need to focus on training ourselves in order to really help people, particularly ourselves. Much like you can't help the homeless or take them in if you don't have a home, if you don't quite have a certain level of "real" happiness and understanding, how can you ever help others to find true happiness and understanding? (Unless you supply examples of what not to do, which happens quite a bit but wouldn't serve to help you much)

In fact, one of the biggest theoretical/philosophical differences between the Theravada and Mahayana schools of Buddhism can be boiled down to: (para-phrased of course)

Theravada: I focus on enlightenment of the self and therefore I may properly help others with understanding.
Mahayana: I focus on helping others achieve Buddhahood therefore I undertake a vow of compassion to become a future-buddha.

It's sort of a chick vs. egg debate. But ultimately, the action of going down the path is more important than the reasoning for it. Buddhists have never warred with each other or anyone else over differences so much of the public seems to think that there is only one branch of Buddhism and the Dalai Lama or Shaolin monks represent us all. heheh.

EDIT: And contact, while important for youngsters - not sure if I would label it as a basic necessity. It's an important one to get along in a social society, but for life itself, that is uncertain. What is certain is experimental tests into depriving human babies of human contact is generally ruled as inhumane- but some loners get by without any contact for extended periods of time, and are quite happy to do so.
http://www.slate.com/id/2264478/

[Ricky]

it looks as if you have technology at your... temple ... i would assume. anyway, is technology fine in there? or is there certain things not allowed, certain time frames you can get on, ect.? or is there more to it? so far i ccan assume there are cameras, computers, and internet.


and is there television?

[smjjames]

it looks as if you have technology at your... temple ... i would assume. anyway, is technology fine in there? or is there certain things not allowed, certain time frames you can get on, ect.? or is there more to it? so far i ccan assume there are cameras, computers, and internet.


and is there television?

Thats what I've wondered myself. I've thought that monks, well not so much shun technology than keep it out of the temple. BUT, then again, I've seen a national geographic picture of a monk using a cellphone and another with buddhist monks using computers (whether that was at the temple or not, I have no idea), so I know that is not actually strictly true, but theres this western (probably) idea that monks don't want technology.

Also, are you still a monk because you said you used to be a monk? Just wondering as the wording was wierd and I do think Buddhism is cool.

[Armok]

Maybe I should have made his clearer: It's a trick question. It's obvious for anyone that they should seek happiness and avoid pain, but the technical WHY of it is rather much less known. I only know it approximately and only by using obscure concepts of modern cognitive science and math and philosophy and all sorts of stuff, seeing it done with 500 BC tools would be cool, if it's actually possible.
The answer I got here STILL looks more like how to do it than why to do it.

This isn't even the ODD question. I sent that by PM because I'm not confident in this forums ability to handle that particular discussion...

[KaelGotDwarves]

Different temples have different views on technology. But it isn't so much as shunning all technology as much as it is discouraging 'toy technology'. There are tvs at this temple but I don't watch it. Laypeople gather and do watch movies together sometimes, or the kids drag over the xbox or wii.

I don't currently play video games, listen to music intentionally for fun (hearing it inadvertently is okay), dance, etc. I'm allowed to browse the web, look at news, catch up on changes to DF

I'm posting from a AMD Athlon 1.1 ghz desktop with 512 ram and windows XP. It was donated along with most of the other gear. I do work on it as well.

I've seen other temples with newer computers, with monks with cellphones, other temples where they disallow all that completely. I've also ran into a caucasian Buddhist monk who had all the chants on his B&N Nook e-reader, had an android cellphone, was a proponent of linux for desktops, and other open source software.

I'm still a monk, got back from traveling in Asia and decided to remain a monk for awhile longer

EDIT: I'm getting off for tonight, but will return to answer more tomorrow sometime.

[Aqizzar]

I don't currently play video games, listen to music intentionally for fun (hearing it inadvertently is okay), dance, etc. I'm allowed to browse the web, look at news, catch up on changes to DF

I can't even imagine what your monastery's views on Dwarf Fortress would be.  You haven't tried to explain it to them, have you?

Given its titular worship of impermanence and humility, they might actually like it.

[silverskull39]

@ Armok

why seek happiness and avoid pain? because happiness feels good and pain hurts, if you ask me. Does there need to be a why, even? A technical why, perhaps because happiness dopes you up on serotonin and because pain is likely to lead to a reduced capacity to carry out the biological imperative of mating?

Or were you looking for a more spiritual-technical sense of why? In that case, I guess I'd go with because, as human beings, we tend to hold an ideal that euphoria can be achieved through happiness and that pain is seen as either a form of trial or as an evil. And maybe it's not necessarily the avoidance of pain so much as the ability cope with it? For example, the monks who burned themselves to death. Surely they weren't avoiding pain, were they?

Well, I guess I'm not really qualified for these things, these are just my own personal opinions ^_^


Anyway, my own question. If the importance in your particular form of Buddhism focuses on the self and self improvement as a way of eventually helping others, how is self sacrifice viewed? I.e. if someone were to have the things necessary to help people, but they lost their life helping someone and those things went elsewhere to places where they would benefit no one or would benefit only one ungrateful person. Would the sacrifice be viewed unkindly due to the loss of their ability to help people? That sort of thing.

[Armok]

I know the answer. (And no, it isn't one of those you mentioned) I were asking for what Buddhism's stance on the subject was, in more detail than a certain single obvious word.

[PenguinOverlord]

Were you Buddhist before you chose to become a monk?

[moocowmoo]

Cool thread. I only learned of the existence of Theravada Buddhism in a college history class last year. Since then I've gotten several books and I really respect the way the Buddha explained his teachings. I would encourage anyone to check it out... accesstoinsight that Kael posted is a great resource. Some English translators of the Buddha's discourses are Thanissaro Bikkhu and Bikkhu Bodhi (Bikkhu means monk I think). You can request a free English anthology of discourses from here: http://www.sati.org/handful_of_leaves.html

[piecewise]

In practice I really have to say that the whole monk thing seems rather hedonistic to me. Sit around and do pretty much nothing but what you want all day, beg for food, consider yourself more enlightened then everyone one else. Not sure what your sect does though. How do you spend the day?

[KaelGotDwarves]

But what if you're not interested in being happy but have some other goal?

What other goal is there? Goals are for reaching an individual happiness on a certain level. Even if your goal is to be miserable and you have undertaken actions to maintain your egos sense of self-hatred and loathing, then on some twisted level your mind has rationalised this making your sense of self feel better. We have delusions, hate, and cause suffering to ourselves and others because we lack wisdom. There is short-term happiness, long-term happiness, and a happiness which transcends time and space. Cultivating mindfulness and concentration through meditation or proper thought can overcome such obstacles. In modern days we have accumulated more knowledge but many of us humans haven't become any wiser or more understanding. We still have fear, hate, wars, pride, prejudice, suffering all around us. The only thing that can stop cycles of suffering is to cultivate right thought and action. In order to have right actions, we have to stop and take a deep breath and think about what we're doing- understand what is really important. That's meditation. Then we teach others.

I can't even imagine what your monastery's views on Dwarf Fortress would be.  You haven't tried to explain it to them, have you?

Given its titular worship of impermanence and humility, they might actually like it.

Some of the kids were playing demon souls on a ps3 they brought to play on our common room TV. One of the elder monks stopped by and paused to watch. After watching the kids standing behind a big monster and hitting it repeatedly in order to avoid being hit, he simply asked, "Why are you stabbing it in the butt?" in Thai.
The kids explained that it was a demon and the monk shook his head and wandered off.

Were you Buddhist before you chose to become a monk?

Yes.

In practice I really have to say that the whole monk thing seems rather hedonistic to me. Sit around and do pretty much nothing but what you want all day, beg for food, consider yourself more enlightened then everyone one else. Not sure what your sect does though. How do you spend the day?

You're confused about what hedonism and the purpose of Buddhism is. Hedonism: a school which argues that pleasure is the only intrinsic good. Buddhism says that in order to find true happiness, we must see the true nature of the sense media and not over or under-indulge in such concepts such as "pleasure" or force "pain" upon ourselves like some yogis did and do. The Buddha taught that sense pleasure does not bring any semblance of lasting happiness, but the understanding of the true nature of suffering does.

The various Buddhist orders have existed for 2500+ years not because they are beggars merely taking, but because they supply support for the laypeople. If we do not offer teaching in a physical, mental, and spiritual manner, we would not receive food or the necessary requirements for life. It is only because monks give that we receive, if we are not helping the community in some way, then our lives are forfeit.

No sect's purpose is to attain enlightenment in order to feel more enlightened than anyone else. The center of the practice is suffering/stress/pain, and understanding that desire and clinging cause pain, and that there is a path to happiness. This is what the Buddha taught and what we continue to teach, a path to lasting happiness.

Cool thread. I only learned of the existence of Theravada Buddhism in a college history class last year. Since then I've gotten several books and I really respect the way the Buddha explained his teachings. I would encourage anyone to check it out... accesstoinsight that Kael posted is a great resource. Some English translators of the Buddha's discourses are Thanissaro Bikkhu and Bikkhu Bodhi (Bikkhu means monk I think). You can request a free English anthology of discourses from here: http://www.sati.org/handful_of_leaves.html

Thanissaro Bhikkhu is a caucasian monk currently in San Diego whom was at the same Thai Forest temple in Thailand at the same time as my father, a temple that I spent time at.

EDIT:Posted by: silverskull39

anyway, my own question. If the importance in your particular form of Buddhism focuses on the self and self improvement as a way of eventually helping others, how is self sacrifice viewed? I.e. if someone were to have the things necessary to help people, but they lost their life helping someone and those things went elsewhere to places where they would benefit no one or would benefit only one ungrateful person. Would the sacrifice be viewed unkindly due to the loss of their ability to help people? That sort of thing.

Missed this one, will answer in a sec.