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[Jetsquirrel]

Jim assigned himself to assist blue on the list. Effectively, there were only two people told to assist blue, so Jim set blue up to not be able to get three assists if everybody voted as requested.

What I said:

Three people voted green, and three were assigned green. One vote each was missing from red and blue. Jim was the third blue vote.

I said it so people would know that I didn't consider it particularly abnormal for blue to only have one assist.

You're trying awfully hard to discredit me, rather then showing interest in why I consider the list to be important. You know that you're a heavy suspect on the list.

ahhhhh....... that explains much.. Now ehm ehh... Im going to try to find some scum.

[KaminaSquirtle]

Ok, I finally have some time to write something up.

Nirur:  This looks like a slip.  You just said "If I was scum, I'd know Green was the town sorc."  Is it you or your scumbuddy that is the sorc?

I believe blue to be the scum school. Green's power use would only have spread WIFOM if they were scum.

I am sorely tempted to post the list, as I think it would help town more then scum. Last chance to convince me not to.

Note that if green names have two votes, then I'm at 6/12 votes.

Um... what?  How did you know green's power at the time of this post?  Either you have been clued in by the green sorc, you're scum, you're the green sorc, or I missed something.
Now we know at least one of green's effects, doubling the vote of anyone with the life energy.  That seems like a pretty useful power for the scum, no?  They could force a townie lynch much easier that way, and it WIFOMs everyone, which is good for them.
And even if it isn't very good, who says their other powers were any better?  It's not like they have a choice of which powers they get.
You're defending green too much, while simultaneously distancing yourself from it, Nirur.

I don't know about the list... it would narrow down the field for the town sorcerer quite a bit, especially since the scum know who the scum apprentice voted, and who the scum sorcerer was assigned.  They could use that to find the last town sorc, and kill him off next night.

For example, assuming everyone who could voted as directed, then the two missing votes for red and blue (other than Jim's) would be the sorcs, and since the scum knows which is the scum one, they would know the town one.

Jetsquirrel: If you weren't you, I'd vote you for the sheer idiocy you're projecting.  Please try, ok?

[Nirur Torir]

ahhhhh....... that explains much.. Now ehm ehh... Im going to try to find some scum.

You're not even pretending that you were scum hunting with your attacks against me?

Um... what?  How did you know green's power at the time of this post?  Either you have been clued in by the green sorc, you're scum, you're the green sorc, or I missed something.

It was heavily implied by the GM's night PM.

Now we know at least one of green's effects, doubling the vote of anyone with the life energy.  That seems like a pretty useful power for the scum, no?  They could force a townie lynch much easier that way, and it WIFOMs everyone, which is good for them.
And even if it isn't very good, who says their other powers were any better?  It's not like they have a choice of which powers they get.

I find the targets a bit odd for green to be scum. Either half the people with green names would be scum, or only one is, leaving some strange people in charge of the double votes, without much of a direct vote benefit for the scum.

I don't know about the list... it would narrow down the field for the town sorcerer quite a bit, especially since the scum know who the scum apprentice voted, and who the scum sorcerer was assigned.  They could use that to find the last town sorc, and kill him off next night.

For example, assuming everyone who could voted as directed, then the two missing votes for red and blue (other than Jim's) would be the sorcs, and since the scum knows which is the scum one, they would know the town one.

On the other hand, they'd be narrowing down the potential scum targets by trying to go for the sorcerer.

[Toaster]

Unvote Nirur.  Your response was townie enough for me.

I tend to agree with the blue=scum hypothesis, and, assuming the green sorc had a choice in the matter, that the green sorc buffed those players he thought least scummy.

Kamina:  I can back up Nirur's claim- the flavor PM specifically mentioned our vote.

Jetsquirrel:  Why did you claim your assist?  What did you hope to gain?  Have you found that scum you said you were going to find yet?

[KaminaSquirtle]

Unvote.
Good points, I didn't think about you getting PMs when it was used on you.  Seems obvious in hindsight.
Both Nirur and Toaster make good points about blue being the scum school.  I'm inclined to agree now.

Jetsquirrel: This is why I asked for specific examples of scumhunting you would do, you're being useless.  Unfortunately I can't get a read on you right now since you act like this no matter what.  I've seen you do things at least as dumb as you are right now when you're town.  We'll see about you.

Mr Person: I hope you plan on less lurking today.  You better start doing some scumhunting soon, since you're near if not at the top of my scum list right now, up with Jet.

[Jokerman-EXE]

I think it might be better to keep the list close to your vest for right now, Nirur. Didn't Jim say he was sending it to two people? If so, it would be nice if the other person kept quiet about it, and maybe held onto it for a while.

ahhhhh....... that explains much.. Now ehm ehh... Im going to try to find some scum.

Waffling much? Come on, Jet, you're playing really sloppy. First you spearhead an attack on Nirur, then you just drop it completely when he defeats one point? That's pretty much you trying to appear active. I'm also curious about this:

i think we got a confirmed scum school and that is green, since jim probaly wanted to balance the votes amongst all 3 schools to not let scum have 3 guys while he may have chosen 1 guy more for himself to get 3 apprentices. As i can say honestly i voted for blue since that is what i red in Jims PM. SO that means that the guy who should've have voted for blue switched to green, and they obvously killed JIM to wipe out all evidence. BUt what we can do now is either vote for noone or vote for blue but voting for green is no option as he can use his best powers if you dont change the votes.

SUUUUUUPER WIFOM. Your thought processes also seem a little sketchy here, and this entire post does nothing but confuse townies.

[Mr.Person]

Person:  I think you misunderstood.  Per what Nirur said, blue was supposed to have three assists, but one of the names on the blue assist list was Jim, so we know Jim, as sorc, could not have assisted blue.  Of the other two names on the list, only one actually assisted blue.  They could both be telling the truth, though assuming that they both are, the other name on the blue list is a sorc.

Totally forgot that sorcerers can't assist. This game is literally me making one mistake after another. Unvote

I believe blue to be the scum school. Green's power use would only have spread WIFOM if they were scum.

I am sorely tempted to post the list, as I think it would help town more then scum. Last chance to convince me not to.

There are several scenarios I can think of that involve a scum green sorcerer.

1. One or two of the players on the assist list are scum.
2. Green Sorcerer isn't in control of who gets double votes when he uses his ability. Could be random, could be based on something unknowable beforehand, I don't know and I'm not interested in finding out.
3. Total WIFOM.

I'm not going to really bother with this anymore since trying to figure anything out is a fast trip to WIFOM land.

Why not actually ask him who the scum are? Besides role information, I fail to see any useful way to deduce which school is the scum school. And in any case, what does it matter? If we definitively confirm which school contains the scum sorcerer, it's not like the scum sorcerer's going to come forward and reveal himself.

What does it matter whether we give scum a powerful spell tonight? Really?

In any case, he doesn't need an ironclad answer to have an answer.

None of that answers my original question. Why didn't you actually ask him who the scum are? And in any case, if he knew for sure that one school was scum, he'd claim it. Asking him about the list is dangerously close to rolefishing in my book.

No, it didn't. I was sure Jim was scum. I based everything off of that bit of information. I had a bit of an inkling Jim was a sorcerer, but that just made me want to lynch him all the more.

This is scummy as hell. "Gee guys, I was just so certain Jim was scum, I just can't do anything at all now! Back to square one! I mean, not scumhunting square one, lurking square one because I'm not being voted anymore."

At what time did I say or imply that I was going to stop scumhunting? You're grossly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Now we know at least one of green's effects, doubling the vote of anyone with the life energy.  That seems like a pretty useful power for the scum, no?  They could force a townie lynch much easier that way, and it WIFOMs everyone, which is good for them.
And even if it isn't very good, who says their other powers were any better?  It's not like they have a choice of which powers they get.

I find the targets a bit odd for green to be scum. Either half the people with green names would be scum, or only one is, leaving some strange people in charge of the double votes, without much of a direct vote benefit for the scum.

I fail to see how any of this is valid at all. Do you honestly think the scum would never do anything that might hurt them slightly just to buy favor from the town or WIFOM the town?

Unvote.
Good points, I didn't think about you getting PMs when it was used on you.  Seems obvious in hindsight.
Both Nirur and Toaster make good points about blue being the scum school.  I'm inclined to agree now.

...

Mr Person: I hope you plan on less lurking today.  You better start doing some scumhunting soon, since you're near if not at the top of my scum list right now, up with Jet.

What points? There are no points. So far the only point I've seen is "anybody who helps the town can't be scum!", which is so wrong it's not even funny.

Afraid to vote, I see. Why might that be? If I'm so scummy, why not vote me? If Jetsquirrel is so much scummier, why not vote him?

[IronyOwl]

Why not actually ask him who the scum are? Besides role information, I fail to see any useful way to deduce which school is the scum school. And in any case, what does it matter? If we definitively confirm which school contains the scum sorcerer, it's not like the scum sorcerer's going to come forward and reveal himself.

What does it matter whether we give scum a powerful spell tonight? Really?

In any case, he doesn't need an ironclad answer to have an answer.

None of that answers my original question. Why didn't you actually ask him who the scum are? And in any case, if he knew for sure that one school was scum, he'd claim it. Asking him about the list is dangerously close to rolefishing in my book.

I didn't ask him who the individual scum were because I didn't think he had any way to know, and I thought it was less useful getting a read on him.

As I just said, he doesn't have to know for sure to have an answer. Why did you say I didn't answer your question, then ask it again?

I never asked him about the list, Mr.Person. You're paying awfully loose attention to this game.

No, it didn't. I was sure Jim was scum. I based everything off of that bit of information. I had a bit of an inkling Jim was a sorcerer, but that just made me want to lynch him all the more.

This is scummy as hell. "Gee guys, I was just so certain Jim was scum, I just can't do anything at all now! Back to square one! I mean, not scumhunting square one, lurking square one because I'm not being voted anymore."

At what time did I say or imply that I was going to stop scumhunting? You're grossly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

You call this scumhunting? You've got no vote, no suspicions, no arguments. You're telling Nirur he's wrong and daring Kamina to make up his mind, and that's the sum of your hunting thus far.

Maybe if we start to lynch you you'll jump into action again, hmmm?

[Toaster]

Jetsquirrel:  Why did you claim your assist?  What did you hope to gain?  Have you found that scum you said you were going to find yet?

Let me rephrase:

Jetsquirrel:  Why did you claim your assist?  What did you hope to gain?  Have you found that scum you said you were going to find yet?

Come out and play, Mr. Squirrel.


Person:  You're pretty heavy on Nirur and Kamina that last post, but you don't mention Jet.  Do you still think he's scummier than them?

[JanusTwoface]

>>> Vote Count <<<

25 Nov 2010 @ 5 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.

Jetsquirrel	(5)	- Jokerman-EXE, Nirur Torir, Toaster
Nirur Torir	(3)	- Jetsquirrel, lemon10
Mr.Person	(2)	- IronyOwl
lemon10	(0)	-
IronyOwl	(0)	-
Jokerman-EXE	(0)	-
KaminaSquirtle	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-

Not Voting: KaminaSquirtle, Mr.Person


Let me know if I missed anything.

[KaminaSquirtle]

What points? There are no points. So far the only point I've seen is "anybody who helps the town can't be scum!", which is so wrong it's not even funny.

Afraid to vote, I see. Why might that be? If I'm so scummy, why not vote me? If Jetsquirrel is so much scummier, why not vote him?

More like 'anybody who helps town has a better chance of being town than scum.'
The question we need to ask is: Why are you so defensive of blue?  Why are you reacting so violently to anyone attacking your precious blue school?

At least I have suspicions, you hypocrite.  You're not voting anyone either.  You're too defensive.  I wasn't sure about either of you before this post, but now I think we can say you're scum, Mr. Person.  Good job making up my mind.

[Nirur Torir]

Now we know at least one of green's effects, doubling the vote of anyone with the life energy.  That seems like a pretty useful power for the scum, no?  They could force a townie lynch much easier that way, and it WIFOMs everyone, which is good for them.
And even if it isn't very good, who says their other powers were any better?  It's not like they have a choice of which powers they get.

I find the targets a bit odd for green to be scum. Either half the people with green names would be scum, or only one is, leaving some strange people in charge of the double votes, without much of a direct vote benefit for the scum.

I fail to see how any of this is valid at all. Do you honestly think the scum would never do anything that might hurt them slightly just to buy favor from the town or WIFOM the town?

Not at all. It just looks unlikely when combined with the list, and makes blue look quite scummy.

That point is an attempt to invalidate my own point and make me question myself, not an attempt to find scum. Why?


I've decided not to post the list, at least for the immediate future.

[Toaster]

Person:  You're pretty heavy on Nirur and Kamina that last post, but you don't mention Jet.  Do you still think he's scummier than them?

Person: I missed your unvote.  Let me rephrase (again):

You're pretty heavy on Nirur and Kamina that last post, but you don't vote either of them.  Why?  Who do you think is the scum here?

[Mr.Person]

Let me ask all you "green sorcerer=town" guys a few hypothetical questions (that means don't answer them, just think about it). Do you honestly think that if the green sorcerer was scum, he'd be stupid enough to only give himself and his scumbuddy his double votes? Do you see any potential scum pairings in the list of double voters? What if the green sorcerer isn't in control of who gets double votes? What if the green sorcerer is townie, do you see any reasoning for the list of people who got double votes?

What do you think about the fact the blue sorcerer only got 1 assist? What do you think the blue sorcerer's spells are? What if his spells aren't confirmable?

These are all questions that come off the top of my head. There's too many unknowns for me to draw useful conclusions from the list of who the green sorcerer gave double votes to. If all those players turn out to be apprentices or the green sorcerer didn't assist himself or green gets 3 assists and the scum don't give themselves more votes than the rest of the town combined (7p or 6p night) or there was something else confirmable, then yeah, there'd be a case for the green sorcerer being verifiable town. As it is, it's all speculation. Any time spent speculating about roles is better spent scumhunting until we know more.

Why not actually ask him who the scum are? Besides role information, I fail to see any useful way to deduce which school is the scum school. And in any case, what does it matter? If we definitively confirm which school contains the scum sorcerer, it's not like the scum sorcerer's going to come forward and reveal himself.

What does it matter whether we give scum a powerful spell tonight? Really?

In any case, he doesn't need an ironclad answer to have an answer.

None of that answers my original question. Why didn't you actually ask him who the scum are? And in any case, if he knew for sure that one school was scum, he'd claim it. Asking him about the list is dangerously close to rolefishing in my book.

I didn't ask him who the individual scum were because I didn't think he had any way to know, and I thought it was less useful getting a read on him.

As I just said, he doesn't have to know for sure to have an answer. Why did you say I didn't answer your question, then ask it again?

I never asked him about the list, Mr.Person. You're paying awfully loose attention to this game.

You didn't think he had any way of knowing who the scum are? That makes no sense at all, of course he has an opinion of who the scum are. Speaking of which, Nirur, I'd like to hear who you think is scum right now.

You only just now answered my question of why you asked which color is scum over who is scum. Your original post simply defended asking about the scum color without explaining why asking that's superior to asking who's scum. So I asked why you asked your question to get an actual answer out of you.

You asked a question that can only be answered with information gathered from the list of who assisted who. That's fishing for information in my book. So you asked the scum colors because you wanted to get a read on him. Alright, what kind of read did you get off him?

So why are you voting me? I don't see any reasoning.

No, it didn't. I was sure Jim was scum. I based everything off of that bit of information. I had a bit of an inkling Jim was a sorcerer, but that just made me want to lynch him all the more.

This is scummy as hell. "Gee guys, I was just so certain Jim was scum, I just can't do anything at all now! Back to square one! I mean, not scumhunting square one, lurking square one because I'm not being voted anymore."

At what time did I say or imply that I was going to stop scumhunting? You're grossly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

You call this scumhunting? You've got no vote, no suspicions, no arguments. You're telling Nirur he's wrong and daring Kamina to make up his mind, and that's the sum of your hunting thus far.

Maybe if we start to lynch you you'll jump into action again, hmmm?

I just said that the only player I thought was scum roleflipped as town, so I have to scumhunt. Which obviously means I have no vote or arguments against anyone. If I did, I wouldn't be scumhunting, I'd be voting to lynch.

Truth be told, I haven't noticed much for the entirety of the game to attack anyone for. Probably I'm just not that good... and possibly I've been focusing on Jim too much. I did read every post, but probably not as well as I could of. I would reread, but frankly that's a lot of work I don't feel like doing. There's still plenty of time left in the day for me to get a lynch target. I believe there's another day or two of discussion, plus extension if we (I) need them.

What points? There are no points. So far the only point I've seen is "anybody who helps the town can't be scum!", which is so wrong it's not even funny.

Afraid to vote, I see. Why might that be? If I'm so scummy, why not vote me? If Jetsquirrel is so much scummier, why not vote him?

More like 'anybody who helps town has a better chance of being town than scum.'
The question we need to ask is: Why are you so defensive of blue?  Why are you reacting so violently to anyone attacking your precious blue school?

At least I have suspicions, you hypocrite.  You're not voting anyone either.  You're too defensive.  I wasn't sure about either of you before this post, but now I think we can say you're scum, Mr. Person.  Good job making up my mind.

All I'm saying is that either the blue or green sorcerer could be scum. Everything's still on the table, nothing's been confirmed yet.

I could turn this around and ask why you're so defensive of the green sorcerer, but I won't since that'd be a waste of time. What the sorcerers did/do is irrelevant. It's far more important who the actual sorcerers ARE and what they've done during the day. I operate under the assumption that night actions are only relevant if they clear a townie or catch scum. That's just how I operate. If you really, really want to drink wine, I'm not going to stop you, but I've really got to recommend against it.

Good job avoiding answering my question. Why didn't you vote for me or Jetsquirrel before? And why are you voting for me now, anyways? Because I'm not voting? I'm not voting anyone because I've still got no suspicions worth voting for.

That point is an attempt to invalidate my own point and make me question myself, not an attempt to find scum. Why?

Your main point is wrong. The green sorcerer may or may not be scum. I'm not saying the green sorcerer is guaranteed scum or anything, but it does seem way too early to be saying he's guaranteed town.

Person: I missed your unvote.  Let me rephrase (again):

You're pretty heavy on Nirur and Kamina that last post, but you don't vote either of them.  Why?  Who do you think is the scum here?

I only vote people when I'm sure they're scum. I don't have any solid scumpicks, so I'm not voting. At the moment my best guess is Kamina, but that's only because I asked a question that went unanswered.

[IronyOwl]

Why not actually ask him who the scum are? Besides role information, I fail to see any useful way to deduce which school is the scum school. And in any case, what does it matter? If we definitively confirm which school contains the scum sorcerer, it's not like the scum sorcerer's going to come forward and reveal himself.

What does it matter whether we give scum a powerful spell tonight? Really?

In any case, he doesn't need an ironclad answer to have an answer.

None of that answers my original question. Why didn't you actually ask him who the scum are? And in any case, if he knew for sure that one school was scum, he'd claim it. Asking him about the list is dangerously close to rolefishing in my book.

I didn't ask him who the individual scum were because I didn't think he had any way to know, and I thought it was less useful getting a read on him.

As I just said, he doesn't have to know for sure to have an answer. Why did you say I didn't answer your question, then ask it again?

I never asked him about the list, Mr.Person. You're paying awfully loose attention to this game.

You didn't think he had any way of knowing who the scum are? That makes no sense at all, of course he has an opinion of who the scum are. Speaking of which, Nirur, I'd like to hear who you think is scum right now.

I suppose I answered this wrong. Yes, he'll have suspicions, but he can't very well reveal them without going into some detail on the list. Revealing which school he suspects is scum doesn't require revealing the list, or even using the list.

I note that after claiming "asking about the list" is "dangerously close to role fishing," you are now asking him who he thinks is scum. Which is either a pathetic and overdue attempt at normal scumhunting, or requesting information about the list.

You only just now answered my question of why you asked which color is scum over who is scum. Your original post simply defended asking about the scum color without explaining why asking that's superior to asking who's scum. So I asked why you asked your question to get an actual answer out of you.

Fair enough. This doesn't explain why you consider which school is the scum school to be both irrelevant and unknowable, however.

You asked a question that can only be answered with information gathered from the list of who assisted who. That's fishing for information in my book. So you asked the scum colors because you wanted to get a read on him. Alright, what kind of read did you get off him?

No, I did not. I asked a question that can be answered much more definitively and usefully with that information, but it doesn't require it.

But furthermore, what information would I be fishing for exactly, and why would that be problematic/scummy? Is asking him which school is scum going to tell me who the town sorcerer is somehow?

But wait, it gets better! You not only asked me why I didn't just ask who he thought is scum, you asked the same question yourself. So either figuring out the scum school requires the list, but figuring out scum doesn't and you just happened to ask the guy with the list, or you're information fishing by your own standards.

So why are you voting me? I don't see any reasoning.

LurkingUselessness. You're not doing and haven't been doing shit. You're very careful to stress the difference between active lurking and lurking, and quibble over the exact definition of either, but I really don't give a damn. The point is, you're not scum hunting, and whether you want to call that lurking, active lurking, being useless, or playing the green flute, the fact remains that you were really only impressive when in serious danger of being lynched. The rest of the time, you're either not posting or posting passive-as-shit declarations and observations. You've probably spent more time telling people they should scumhunt and ignore schools than you have actually scumhunting.

No, it didn't. I was sure Jim was scum. I based everything off of that bit of information. I had a bit of an inkling Jim was a sorcerer, but that just made me want to lynch him all the more.

This is scummy as hell. "Gee guys, I was just so certain Jim was scum, I just can't do anything at all now! Back to square one! I mean, not scumhunting square one, lurking square one because I'm not being voted anymore."

At what time did I say or imply that I was going to stop scumhunting? You're grossly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

You call this scumhunting? You've got no vote, no suspicions, no arguments. You're telling Nirur he's wrong and daring Kamina to make up his mind, and that's the sum of your hunting thus far.

Maybe if we start to lynch you you'll jump into action again, hmmm?

I just said that the only player I thought was scum roleflipped as town, so I have to scumhunt. Which obviously means I have no vote or arguments against anyone. If I did, I wouldn't be scumhunting, I'd be voting to lynch.

Truth be told, I haven't noticed much for the entirety of the game to attack anyone for. Probably I'm just not that good... and possibly I've been focusing on Jim too much. I did read every post, but probably not as well as I could of. I would reread, but frankly that's a lot of work I don't feel like doing. There's still plenty of time left in the day for me to get a lynch target. I believe there's another day or two of discussion, plus extension if we (I) need them.

Case in point. You say you haven't noticed anything, which justifies not having any suspicions. You certainly can't go find scum, you've got to wait for them to reveal themselves and fall into your lap.

And you say there's plenty of time left in the day, but I consider that absolutely fucking irrelevant, because I see no reason to believe you'll be any more efficient later in the day than you are now. Have you been making progress so far? Are you closer to figuring out whether someone's scum? Or are you just hoping someone else will make something happen so you can bandwagon your not-scumbuddy?