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[Toaster]

Bullshit right back at you. These are the contents of those oh so piercing attacks of yours to Person: "did the night turn out as you expected?", "Why don't you vote them?", "Why don't you press them?", and the last one, oh so hammering the point: "You are next on my list" (though you never actually voted him). Hardly legendary, is it? I maintain that you pretty much avoided him the entire game; OK, you directed one or two innocuous paragraphs at him, but no real hunting. Almost like you had a vested interest.

Of course the first ones are lighter- I wasn't sure then.  And your point that I never voted him is asinine- why should I unvote my top suspect to lynch #2 just because #2 had more votes?  If I had changed to him, you'd be saying I bussed him instead.

Regarding Jokerman:
Yes, he's lurky.  Yes, I thought he was scummy earlier.  However, much of his scummitude was due to his interactions with Lemon which I thought was an indication of a team.  Since that's obviously not the case (they can't BOTH be scum), my suspicions of him have dropped.

And since you asked...

Some items point to JS/me not being scum, though, and I'd like those voting me to address them:
- JS voted Mr.Person early on Day 1 and stayed there thoughout; JS is not the bussing type.
- He went far out of his way to call out Person for lurking; I doubt he'd do that to his scumbuddy.
- Person was likewise voting JS most of the game. (most of D1, and immediately on D2, though he did switch at the end)
- JS did support Jim's plan (I got his PMs).
- See this post by IronyOwl, it tells much of the JS story.

Bussing is always a risky strategy for scum, and having only two members, I'd see it as impossible that JS and MrP were bussing each other.

1.  Weak
2.  Why not?  Ignoring the lurking could backfire as well- attacking it is easy distancing points.
3.  See final point.
4.  Of course he did- he was told to support his scumbuddy.  You get a derp for this one.
5.  You're dipping into WIFOM here with your last points, so let me counter it with a theory that probably dips its toes in the wine as well:

Person and Jet both know that Jet is scummy. They stage a great fight between each other that lasts multiple days.  When one of them hangs, the other gains a lot of town cred for attacking the lynchee!  I assume they figured Jet would hang first.

I, of course, have no proof for that, but it's a possibility.

[JanusTwoface]

>>> Vote Count <<<

Day Ends in ~ 3 hours
3 Dec 2010 @ 5 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.
There are no outstanding activity warnings.

Zathras	(7)	- IRONYOWL, AVATAR OF LIFE, Jokerman-EXE, KaminaSquirtle, lemon10, Toaster, Zathras
IronyOwl	(0)	-
Jokerman-EXE	(0)	-
KaminaSquirtle	(0)	-
lemon10	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-

Not Voting:


Let me know if I missed anything.

[Zathras]

Oh well. I knew coming in that a JS lynch was all but inevitable. Fortunately, as I said, there's plenty of room for a mislynch. I would like people to state for the record who their next pick is, just in case, you know, the game is not over in three hours.

As for me, my money is on Jokerman. Please do pay some heed to my comments about his voting patterns, and his first comment of this day. It may still be Toaster, but I find Joker scummier now.

This was probably the shortest replace in history...

[IronyOwl]

I'm getting the Criptfeind feeling again. You're either town or godly scum, Zathras. Or I'm jittery and paranoid.

Jokerman's flippant/nonexistent responses are making me suspicious, however.

Yesterday lots of people thought he was scum, but they thought that person was more scummy, so they voted person. with person dead, you/jet is now in first place.
I'm agreeing because the scummiest person is dead, i couldn't really get on yesterday (so i was lurking all day two), and upon reading the thread i see that jet was the scummiest person in my opinion.
Everyone is jumping on jet now because the other suspect is dead, only 3 people didn't vote jet or person. Jet, person and me, because i was lurking and didn't have time to read the thread (so my vote would have been uninformed and random), person because he was scum, and jet because i think he was scum to.

Also, jet voting blue is a pretty big thing. yeah, the scum apprentice maybe voted green/red, but i find that unlikley, especially since the chance of him being found out is about 0%.

For the first point, "everyone thought he was scum yesterday" is not a valid counter to claims that other people are scummy or that he's not scummy.

For the second point, scum couldn't have been found out directly (unless Jim had lived; we're not sure what he could have done with three assists) but in theory it still could have revealed that blue had too many votes and was the scum school. Scum could have easily decided that they would be better off gambling for a lot of assists every day, instead of getting one extra day one and then getting only one every following night.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Distance myself from Mr.Person as he was about to hang...yeah, that's one way to look at it. Conveniently, that way ignores the fact that I was voting your predecessor instead of Mr.Person. And, as you're so quick to point out, Mr.P was going to hang anyway, whether or not I voted him. So I was making a point - that I thought Jet was scum. Congrats, you've inherited his scummitude.

Yes, you were making a point, but not that one. You were being careful to be seen as attacking Person, as you knew he would flip scum, so it was necessary for you to have some history with him. There's not much else before that. But yes, you were quick to jump on the JS bandwagon day two (and three), just as you were on the Criptfeind bandwagon on day one. I'm sure he was scummy too.

You're trying to draw attention to your "read" on me? It was two lines, and you're pushing it like some kind of big deal. I just disproved the entire thing - again, only two lines

Only two lines there; I elaborate further down in my note to Irony. Ignoring it is not disproving it: you have been reluctant about voting every day, and only committed yourself once a wagon had formed, then promptly disappeared for the rest of the day (except for taking care to be distanced from Person before he flipped). You have disproved nothing.

- so you should think of another reason why you're not scum. I don't see how anyone could buy this one.

I have, a number of them regarding interactions between JS and Person, which you conveniently have not addressed. I explicitly ask those who are voting me to review them and give opinions. So far, only IronyOwl has done so. You and Toaster came in, briefly looked at my evidence, dismissed it, and left again. Hardly a fair shake, yes? Almost like you don't want to answer them.

I also ask you: who else is scummy? Or is it only me, can only be me, and the game will be over 100% for sure when I hang? Have you considered the possibility of someone else being scum? If so who and why?


Also, while we are talking about you, I would like to review your only other post this day again:

I don't see why we haven't lunched Zathras already; regardless of his replacing in for Jet, I don't believe Jet was playing like town even disregarding his noobishness. It didn't feel like town play at all, and it's because he was scum.

I'm not about to defend his playstyle, but I happen to know he was town. What specific evidence do you have for him being scum "disregarding his noobishness", as you say? The point about the Green school I addressed earlier, but again only Irony was engaged enough to respond to it. Any other actual evidence, rather than his generally sloppy playstyle?

He had the second most votes yesterday, so I'm not the only one that thought so.

He was voted by only you and Toaster [1]. "Not the only one", sure, but hardly a consensus. What has changed between yesterday and today? Why are Irony, Lemon & KS jumping to agree with Jokerman/Toaster? Is it the green school thing again, or is there anything else?

We hit scum yesterday; let's do it again today and finish what we started yesterday.

Interesting wording. "We" didn't hit scum: IronyOwl and Nirur hit scum. You were voting JS. These many "we" and "let's do it!" are scummy. "Go team" rhetoric is an attempt to ingratiate yourself to town, taking credit for other's victories, with the purpose of making yourself look town even though you have not done anything in favour of town: you lynched Cript, and failed to even vote for Person. What have you done for town?

You are almost surely the scum left.

1. How is it that you think you're privy to what I was thinking during D2? You're looking back at something that occurred before you were in the game and projecting your suspicions onto it, which is not how the game is played. If you look at my interactions with Mr.P, the only reason I even spoke to him at all was because he tried to deflect onto me for my "lurking" (I use quotations because it was over the Thanksgiving holiday that I was accused of this). Had he not, I would have had no reason to speak to him.

Know why? Because Jet was scum in my eyes. You say I'm quick to "jump on a bandwagon" on him, then point out that there were only two of us voting for him. I also voted before Toaster did. It can't be called a bandwagon when I vote him and everyone else takes their votes off, leaving mine; if I did that, it would be a waste of my time. My vote was there because he, now you, was/are scum. And it's not hopping on a bandwagon D3, because again, my vote shouldn't have to change because my target didn't die yesterday. The vote rolled over, buddy, because nothing changed.

2. I've not been "reluctant to vote every day;" as soon as I have a suspicion my vote has been placed on that person. You're again trying to project onto my playstyle without knowing what I'm thinking.

3 and 4. I suppose you did; I missed that. I would also like to be linked to your "interactions between Mr.P and JS," because I missed those too.

5. Now you're really stretching. You're going to attack my wording? Really? That's pathetic. You know I'm using the word "we" because I'm talking about us town.

Your final question is fair. On the off chance that you're not scum (which I don't buy for a second), my second pick would be lemon10, for his general off-playstyle (no real evidence, though), or KaminaSquirtle for his promised "More later" that I'm still waiting on.

PPE: Add IronyOwl to that list. This might look like OMGUS, but I have to say...nonexistant responses? You're joking, right? At least Zathras is accusing me of something that can actually be argued. You must be either blind or idiotic to think I'm replying flippantly; I'm accusing one person and pushing my reasoning of it.

What it looks like is that IronyOwl is trying to latch onto Zathras' pathos; if Zathras dies and flips town, IronyOwl wants to use that as a sure sign that I must be scum. That's how it appears to me, however - I would hear IronyOwl defend himself before I say that definitively.

[Zathras]

You're either town or godly scum, Zathras.

Heh. If I was scum I'd be totally sigging this  8-) . Hey, I too think I can be godly scum, just not in this game...

2. I've not been "reluctant to vote every day;" as soon as I have a suspicion my vote has been placed on that person.

The evidence des not lie. Day one, you didn't place a vote until twelve pages into the day, and when you did, it was third on bandwagon. Day two, it was (and I did point out) third numerically, second person on it, but the other's vote counted double, and you still waited until the wagon formed [1]. Day three you were still the last to jump on my bandwagon.

3 and 4. I suppose you did; I missed that. I would also like to be linked to your "interactions between Mr.P and JS," because I missed those too.

Now you're not even trying. They are on my first post of the game; you know, the one to which you responded in your second post of the day?

5. Now you're really stretching. You're going to attack my wording? Really? That's pathetic. You know I'm using the word "we" because I'm talking about us town.

Hell yeah! Being overtly "us town" is a definite scumtell. "Come on, guys, we're all town here, right? no point looking for scum amongst ourselves townies! let's look at that scummy guy over there!" Absolutely the words of a scum.

Your final question is fair. On the off chance that you're not scum (which I don't buy for a second), my second pick would be lemon10, for his general off-playstyle (no real evidence, though), or KaminaSquirtle for his promised "More later" that I'm still waiting on.

PPE: Add IronyOwl to that list.

Yeah, no surprises here: you think the scummiest ones are the one that could have saved Person but didn't, and the one that killed him, almost confirmed townie. Not scummy at all for you to look that way, eh?

if Zathras dies and flips town, IronyOwl wants to use that as a sure sign that I must be scum. That's how it appears to me, however.

Here you speak truth. It's how it appears to me as well. With the difference that it is also literally true: if I flip town, it will be a sure sign that you must be scum, yes.

[IronyOwl]

PPE: Add IronyOwl to that list. This might look like OMGUS, but I have to say...nonexistant responses? You're joking, right? At least Zathras is accusing me of something that can actually be argued. You must be either blind or idiotic to think I'm replying flippantly; I'm accusing one person and pushing my reasoning of it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jokerman: his voting patterns, his blatant coming back from lurking at the end of day 2 only to distance himself from Mr.Person as he was obviously about to hang... but still didn't vote him.

This...is a joke, right?

For one thing, my "blatant" coming back from lurking? I'm sorry, next time I come back from lurking I'll make sure to sneak into the thread so I don't startle you.

Distance myself from Mr.Person as he was about to hang...yeah, that's one way to look at it. Conveniently, that way ignores the fact that I was voting your predecessor instead of Mr.Person. And, as you're so quick to point out, Mr.P was going to hang anyway, whether or not I voted him. So I was making a point - that I thought Jet was scum. Congrats, you've inherited his scummitude.

You're trying to draw attention to your "read" on me? It was two lines, and you're pushing it like some kind of big deal. I just disproved the entire thing - again, only two line - so you should think of another reason why you're not scum. I don't see how anyone could buy this one.

I call this flippant. You responded to real concerns (that you were bandwagoning late in the day) with "Come on, two lines and I just disproved the whole thing!" Which is interesting because you refused to even address this accusation.

Your response to "distancing" is also a bit off, since it's more a statement that JS was scum so Zath is scum than it is explaining why your only interaction with Person could be viewed as distancing.

Overall, you seem firmly in "Come on guys this guy is obviously scum" mode, which I find suspicious.

What it looks like is that IronyOwl is trying to latch onto Zathras' pathos; if Zathras dies and flips town, IronyOwl wants to use that as a sure sign that I must be scum. That's how it appears to me, however - I would hear IronyOwl defend himself before I say that definitively.

So the McCarthy defense, then- anyone who agrees with scum is scum.

That's great and all, but there's only one left, so you can't accuse us both of being scum. So which is it? If Zath is scum, it doesn't make any goddamn sense for me to latch onto his creed so I can lynch you after him. If I'm scum, the guy you're oh so certain is scum isn't after all, and you've been giving the "oh pleeeease" treatment to a townie trying to scumhunt.

Either way, Unvote Zathras, Extension, and Jokerman-EXE. I'm surprised too, but this day isn't over yet.

[KaminaSquirtle]

Ok, firstly I'll address Zathras's points.

Some items point to JS/me not being scum, though, and I'd like those voting me to address them:
- JS voted Mr.Person early on Day 1 and stayed there thoughout; JS is not the bussing type.
- He went far out of his way to call out Person for lurking; I doubt he'd do that to his scumbuddy.
- Person was likewise voting JS most of the game. (most of D1, and immediately on D2, though he did switch at the end)
- JS did support Jim's plan (I got his PMs).
- See this post by IronyOwl, it tells much of the JS story.

1)  Who says he wasn't?  Maybe Mr Person knew JS would be suspected, and told him to bus him early, since he didn't want to be associated with him.  Too much WIFOM in any case.
2)  This doesn't mean anything.  He could have meant it legitimately, or he could have just been distancing.
3)  See 1.  Th wanted to be as distanced as possible, since Mr Person knew JS would act scummy.
4)  He happened to get the right school.  Lucky him.  This doesn't explain why he had to go and brag about it.
5)  You addressed pretty much all of those points.  I would also like to point out that IronyOwl voted JS anyway.

My second scumpick would have been Jokerman for lack of content, but he just coughed up a lot of content.  As long as he keeps it up, I think he's off the hook for that charge.
I'd have to say Toaster then.

Bullshit right back at you. These are the contents of those oh so piercing attacks of yours to Person: "did the night turn out as you expected?", "Why don't you vote them?", "Why don't you press them?", and the last one, oh so hammering the point: "You are next on my list" (though you never actually voted him). Hardly legendary, is it? I maintain that you pretty much avoided him the entire game; OK, you directed one or two innocuous paragraphs at him, but no real hunting. Almost like you had a vested interest.

Of course the first ones are lighter- I wasn't sure then.  And your point that I never voted him is asinine- why should I unvote my top suspect to lynch #2 just because #2 had more votes?  If I had changed to him, you'd be saying I bussed him instead.

Shouldn't you press harder if you're unsure, so you can form a stronger opinion?  I don't think asking weak questions is going to help you figure out if he's scum.
Maybe it's just your style, but I don't like the way you've mostly just asked questions, and answered questions.  It seems too passive.

I should probably reread the thread, so I can be sure I'm remembering things right.

PPE:
I definitely need to look over this again.  I need to look into the Jokerman and Toaster cases more closely.
I think Irony has a point.  But I have a good few suspicions, and only one can be scum.

[Zathras]

I'm surprised too, but this day isn't over yet.

PPE: I definitely need to look over this again.  I need to look into the Jokerman and Toaster cases more closely.

I'll second the extension request; I'll still hang if people wish it, but more discussion can't hurt, yes?

[KaminaSquirtle]

Forgot to ask for an extension too.

[JanusTwoface]

>>> Vote Count <<<

Extension Granted
Day Ends: 6 Dec 2010 @ 5 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.
Both Day 3 Extensions have now been used.
There are no outstanding activity warnings.

Zathras	(5)	- Jokerman-EXE, KaminaSquirtle, lemon10, Toaster, Zathras
Jokerman-EXE	(2)	- IRONYOWL, AVATAR OF LIFE
IronyOwl	(0)	-
KaminaSquirtle	(0)	-
lemon10	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-

Not Voting:

3 / 3 Extension Requests: IRONYOWL, AVATAR OF LIFE, KaminaSquirtle, Zathras


Let me know if I missed anything.

[Zathras]

I count five votes on me, not four. Is it an error, or is it that one of us has votes that don't count?

[JanusTwoface]

I count five votes on me, not four. Is it an error, or is it that one of us has votes that don't count?

You saw nothing!

It was an error.  The previous two vote counts have been updated, those before that should be correct.

[Toaster]

Of course the first ones are lighter- I wasn't sure then.  And your point that I never voted him is asinine- why should I unvote my top suspect to lynch #2 just because #2 had more votes?  If I had changed to him, you'd be saying I bussed him instead.

Shouldn't you press harder if you're unsure, so you can form a stronger opinion?  I don't think asking weak questions is going to help you figure out if he's scum.
Maybe it's just your style, but I don't like the way you've mostly just asked questions, and answered questions.  It seems too passive.

The first one was weak, sure.  I was also running off far too little sleep at the time to get anything better out.  At the time of the first post, I suspected Person and Jokerman, so that's why the question went to them.

I generally stick with probing questions until I start to get a good picture of what's going on.  That's just my style.

I think Irony has a point.  But I have a good few suspicions, and only one can be scum.

Zath's plan is to make people outthink themselves, and you're falling for it.

[IronyOwl]

I think Irony has a point.  But I have a good few suspicions, and only one can be scum.

Zath's plan is to make people outthink themselves, and you're falling for it.

So you think we should stop scumhunting and just lynch Zath? What happens if he's not scum? More importantly, what's the harm if he is?