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[Criptfeind]

I am sorry Jimmy.

I like plans and all, but the risk (you are scum) is not worth the reward (... unspecified?)

Now that I think about it, you have said yourself this is just to get people to assist, why the hell do we need this plan? You can badger people all you want but this plan only, by basically your own words, does something if you are scum.

And well I am at it, I will turn that into a formal accusation.

Jim.

Scummy plan=Scummy person.

[Criptfeind]

Well I am at it.

Extend.

It is too early, but I don't know when I will get back to a computer.

[Jim Groovester]

"Look, I'm town, because these actions are not the actions of scum. Why would I do this if I was scum?"

You answered my question with more WIFOM.

Yeah, I know.

Here's an explanation that doesn't include WIFOM: I thought it might be helpful in explaining why I'm not scum.

That what you're looking for?

But fine, all you unimaginative, uncooperative dullards can have your way. I'll give up the plan.

Why do I even bother. Oh, right, because I thought it might be a good thing to do.

[Nirur Torir]

Jim, I'm getting nothing but scum vibes from you.
Lack of sleep is getting in my way; I'll clarify later. For now, going from memory:
1) Buddying myself and Lemon10. Teaching a new player how to play is fine, as is being nice, but it just looked like buddying over teaching or scum hunting to me.
2) You cast suspicions on me for my methods of questioning Criptfeind, but didn't directly attack. I assume you're fully capable of attacking multiple people.
3) You overall seem to be trying to act like a "good townie."
4) You've stated multiple times that the primary goal for your plan was to get people to assist, and ... whatever your other goal with it was unlikely to work, but worth it. You didn't properly address that, if you're scum, it benefits you far more then the possible town benefits if you're town. You didn't even accept them, as "you're town." The main goal wouldn't have taken any cooperation at all. You lied about the main goal.
5) WIFOM.
6-10) Lynch all liars.

[Jetsquirrel]

JIM you are reapeating yourself again....... creating a plan which may be usefull to you because you might be scum.

and also aextension

[Jim Groovester]

1) I did what now? I explained all the buddying stuff already when it was brought up, early in Day 1, here and here and here. But when was I buddying you? Oh, you must be talking about when I told you that you were full of crap about Criptfeind. Nah, I was just correcting you. Nothing to it. Unless there's something else you're talking about, in which case, let me know.

2) Yep, that's what I was doing. You had been quiet for a while and I wanted to see if you would come out and post if I made a bunch of snipes on you. Maybe you might've even addressed the points I was making.

3) Act? Pssssssh. There's no way I can respond to this.

4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.

If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.

5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.

6-10) This is stupid. People who trudge this out just want an excuse to lynch people and sound authoritative about it. If I had been caught in a lie about my role, like I actioned somebody different then who I said I did, then yeah, Lynch All Liars, no problem.

Let's go. What else you got. I'm ready and raring to get into a good fight. I'm like the Muhammed Ali of Mafia. I'll dodge to the left, dodge to the right, then hit you with a quick jab of scumhunting in the jaw and knock you flat. You ready to go nine rounds with the Heavyweight Champion?

JIM you are reapeating yourself again....... creating a plan which may be usefull to you because you might be scum.

and also aextension

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Are you going to do anything else?

I'll throw in for an extension, too. Figure all this plan stuff is good enough to get some good conversation going. Might even get some good reads, finally.

[Jetsquirrel]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Are you going to do anything else?

I'll throw in for an extension, too. Figure all this plan stuff is good enough to get some good conversation going. Might even get some good reads, finally

yeah, after school tho because i goota hurry off soon

[IronyOwl]

Extension.

For some reason I'm kind of liking Jim's plan now. Only trouble is, either he tells us what discrepancies there are, outing town sorcs, or he keeps it to himself and scum NKs him to take out an overinformed townie.

I like the concept, and might be willing to risk Jim being scum, but how would we transfer it into actual advantage, Jim?

[Jim Groovester]

The easy solution to that is just tell somebody else, somebody I think is town, the secret list of people of who is supporting what color. That way all the information is not withheld in my apparently scummy hands. This would be a secret choice, of course, but either way, the information makes it to the next day. If people had agreed to the plan I would have done this anyway, as insurance that all the information wouldn't die with me.

AGAIN, the potential that actually useful information comes from it is fairly low. But it's more potential than just assisting randomly. But it would help, however marginally.

I'd probably keep the information to myself, and look it over for anything useful. If there was a situation where I could definitively say somebody was scum, I would reveal that information. Revealing it all at the outset would be a bad idea, naturally, because the scum would have the information and would be able to narrow down who the town sorcerers are regardless of whether they think I'm be scum or not.

I understand there's a lot of trust and faith involved in this, and I can completely understand if people don't want to follow along because of it. But unfortunately, an element of secrecy is required for this to actually be useful in any meaningful way.

Regardless, I've given up on it. Unless there's a sudden upswing of support I'm not going to push it anymore.

[Toaster]

I think the risk/reward ratio is too bad to follow the plan.  It'd only hurt if you're scum, but I don't see it helping anyway.

Jokerman, what say you?  You've been quiet again lately.  (I do see your post saying why, but I'd still like to hear from you.)

[JanusTwoface]

>>> Vote Count <<<

Day Ends: In ~ 4.25 hours
18 Nov 2010 @ 5 pm EST

Notes
Apprentices: Send me your assists before the day ends.
Extension Requests (3/5) - IronyOwl, Jetsquirrel, Jim Groovester

Jim Groovester	(4)	- Criptfeind, Jokerman-EXE, lemon10, Nirur Torir
lemon10	(2)	- Jim Groovester, KaminaSquirtle,
Mr.Person	(2)	- IronyOwl, Jetsquirrel
Jetsquirrel	(1)	- Mr.Person
Criptfeind	(0)	-
IronyOwl	(0)	-
Jokerman-EXE	(0)	-
KaminaSquirtle	(0)	-
Nirur Torir	(0)	-
Toaster	(0)	-

Not Voting: Toaster


Let me know if I missed anything.

[Nirur Torir]

1) I did what now? I explained all the buddying stuff already when it was brought up, early in Day 1,

Explained or not, you were buddying Lemon, and were nice to me about perceived mistakes I made in my methodology, rather then inquisitional.

3) Act? Pssssssh. There's no way I can respond to this.

I stand by my statement: You're the only one who I get strong "good townie" vibes from. Weak evidence, perhaps, but my experience leads me to believe that "good townies" don't usually feel as such. Scum get far more benefit from being obvious "good townie," as townies tend to get NKed when they're accepted as obviously townies.

4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.

If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.

No, sorry. I cannot mentally combine the following statements as all being true:
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it.

Since you admitted that the secondary goal had a slim chance of working, and would have required the compliance of all townies, I feel I can safely rule it out.
I see two remaining possible goals:
1) You're scum, trying to figure out the sorcerers. Distracting from scum hunting with your plan was a bonus.
2) You're actually town, but were reaction fishing. Since you haven't attacked anybody for their stances, this is unlikely.

5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.

If so, then your defensive WIFOM failed completely, as it just makes so much more sense if you're scum.

6-10) This is stupid. People who trudge this out just want an excuse to lynch people and sound authoritative about it. If I had been caught in a lie about my role, like I actioned somebody different then who I said I did, then yeah, Lynch All Liars, no problem.

Perhaps not a direct lie, but you were deceitful about it.

Let's go. What else you got. I'm ready and raring to get into a good fight. I'm like the Muhammed Ali of Mafia. I'll dodge to the left, dodge to the right, then hit you with a quick jab of scumhunting in the jaw and knock you flat. You ready to go nine rounds with the Heavyweight Champion?

Very well, let's hear your counter-attack.

Extension request

[Jokerman-EXE]

Here's what I've got from the last couple pages.

Unvote Jim Groovester.

You're all being idiots. At the risk of sounding like I'm buddying, I'm going to drill this into your heads. His plan does not hurt the town. Think about it: he send out the PMs and tells you who to support. And it's like, "OMG THE SCUM KNOWS NOW!11!11!!!1" is your only argument. Are you forgetting that scum already knows who the non-scum are? And the color of the support does not give them any information as to who was supported, just the school.

I like the plan. It's better than waffling around in the dark like a bunch of down-syndrome monkeys because it gives an actual purpose, and has the added benefit of prompting supports. I say we go for it.

And finally, extension.

[Jim Groovester]

Let's go. What else you got. I'm ready and raring to get into a good fight. I'm like the Muhammed Ali of Mafia. I'll dodge to the left, dodge to the right, then hit you with a quick jab of scumhunting in the jaw and knock you flat. You ready to go nine rounds with the Heavyweight Champion?

Very well, let's hear your counter-attack.

You got it, pal. I got more than enough patience and anger and determination to deal with blind unthinking idiots. I got so much practice last game, it'll be a piece of cake dealing with you.

1) I did what now? I explained all the buddying stuff already when it was brought up, early in Day 1,

Explained or not, you were buddying Lemon, and were nice to me about perceived mistakes I made in my methodology, rather then inquisitional.

I vehemently disagree with this. Guiding people for the sake of their own game is not buddying, and it's something I can't help myself from doing, and I'm not going to stop because you don't like it for whatever the fuck reason. Seriously, I can't correct you, because I have to be scumhunting you at the same time?

That is.
           The most retarded thing I've ever heard.

3) Act? Pssssssh. There's no way I can respond to this.

I stand by my statement: You're the only one who I get strong "good townie" vibes from. Weak evidence, perhaps, but my experience leads me to believe that "good townies" don't usually feel as such. Scum get far more benefit from being obvious "good townie," as townies tend to get NKed when they're accepted as obviously townies.

Vibes. Feelings. These are things I cannot defend against.

You got any examples where I'm trying to be a "good townie"? Any posts that make you think that way? If you don't then you're full of crap.

I can always point to a post that gives me a feeling, and I can explain why. Can you do the same? If you can't then this is a completely indefensible reason to suspect somebody.

4) There's no good way for me to address it, and I addressed it as best as I could. The reason, of course, why there's no good way to address it is because those are legitimate issues with the plan. But I wasn't lying about the main goal. You're superimposing motivations on me because of your suspicions. It would get everybody assisting, and then there would be some ancillary advantages as well. Maybe not much, but a little more than just making sure everybody assisted randomly.

If you suspect me because I was pushing the plan too hard, I did say I wasn't going to give it up easy, didn't I? I gave it my best, but it's clear now that it's not going to work. Might've been clear before, but I thought I might try and be persuasive.

No, sorry. I cannot mentally combine the following statements as all being true:
1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it.

Since you admitted that the secondary goal had a slim chance of working, and would have required the compliance of all townies, I feel I can safely rule it out.
I see two remaining possible goals:
1) You're scum, trying to figure out the sorcerers. Distracting from scum hunting with your plan was a bonus.
2) You're actually town, but were reaction fishing. Since you haven't attacked anybody for their stances, this is unlikely.

If you can't mentally combine those two things then you're not thinking very hard. Because those are the things that happened. Come on, Nirur Torir, keep up. Besides, your list needs editing.

1) The primary goal of the plan, which could have been accomplished without any agreements, was to get everybody assisting. The secondary goal of the plan renders it a slight improvement over just getting everybody assisting.
2) Jim spent the better part of a day trying to get everybody to go along with it, because he thought it was a good idea, even against stiff opposition from a bunch of boring people.

This is not hard to get a grasp on. Because it is what happened.

As for your scenarios, the first one is stupid because it assumes I have a complete lack of foresight and memory, because you think I would've realized I would get flak for proposing a plan, since I got flak for the same thing in the first Sorcererer's Apprentice. (Hint: I knew this full-well going into it that I would get shit for it.) I mean, distracting the town from scum hunting? Seems like that backfired. Figuring out a grainy picture of where the town sorcerers are isn't worth that.

The second one is incorrect, because that's not what I was proposing the plan for. But even if I did do it for reaction testing, there's not much to go on. I see a bunch of indifference about it, some opposition, some support, but that's not terribly out of line. There are some interesting windfalls in the scumhunting department because of it, and I'll get to that in a minute.

5) Yes, it was WIFOM. WIFOM does not automatically mean whoever doing it is scum. You'll see townies frequently employing WIFOM when they're under suspicion, as a supplement to their normal defense of explaining their actions.

If so, then your defensive WIFOM failed completely, as it just makes so much more sense if you're scum.

This

This is stupid. You've never seen townies use WIFOM before? You need to play this game more.

6-10) This is stupid. People who trudge this out just want an excuse to lynch people and sound authoritative about it. If I had been caught in a lie about my role, like I actioned somebody different then who I said I did, then yeah, Lynch All Liars, no problem.

Perhaps not a direct lie, but you were deceitful about it.

And then there you go with the superposition of motivations again.

I did not lie. I was not deceitful. I said everything I did because I believed it was true. I made no attempt to mislead people.

Anyways, I see three people voting for me, but only one of them is actually interested in sparring. The second I'm not sure about, but the third I'm pretty sure is scum.

Unvote. Criptfeind, you're scum. Before you decided you wanted to suspect me for my plan, you suspected me because... I don't know, honestly. You said I was being too nice, but that's a reasonless vote if I ever heard one.

You also said you were going to try and kick the beehive. What happened to that? You didn't do it against me. You haven't done it against anyone. So I'm pretty sure you're scum who's planning on sitting tight through the rest of the day now that you have a reason that you can say you suspect somebody.

Passive and complacent. Scum.

[Jetsquirrel]

Mr. person come in here are you just trying to draw as little attention as possible? and i may found a hole in Jims plan. Lets say that jim is scum he sends his pms as intented with everyone a color he gives 2 dudes the color of his buds scumschool or his own and direct a pm to his scumbuddy that states him to lie about his color and that he should vote for his. At the end of the day he already has 3 supporters allowing him to use his best spell which are good for most sorcs, now depending on the ability he or his bud gained he will think something that will probaly smash town or have a get out of jail card.

But i may be wrong if i understood the plan and what Jokerman summed up badly, so this may be another piece of useless text i created somewhere in the night.