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Author Topic: rioting  (Read 7337 times)

ed boy

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Re: rioting
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2010, 06:56:59 pm »

I enjoyed a good old fashioned riot yesterday at Millbank. In the aftermarth i have mixing feelings about its purpose and what it could lead to in the near future.

So i was wondering, what are you thoughts on rioting, bay 12?

Particullarly as a political tool, rather than football etc.

And, do you think there will be further rioting across europe? (and possibly the rest of the world? Do people in your neighbour hood wish to riot?)
As a political tool, rioting is worse than useless.

As for this particular riot, I do not see the point. Despite the government reworking the funding system so that the poorer are a lot better off than the rich in the big picture, and making this very clear, these supposedly intelligent students instantly react rather crudely with "INCREASED FEES = BAD --> HURT THE POOR --> DIE TORY SCUM".

name an effective peaceful protest in the UK, the largest protest in UK history was peaceful and a failure.
I don't know about the UK, but you'ds have a hard time beating Gandhi the independence of India.

Though, to be honest on this situation here in England, I get the feeling the riots where initiated by pro-tory students.
Nope. I know several people who went to the protest, it was nothing of the sort. From what I can tell, it was people who were using the riot as an opportunity to smash up some stuff.

I was just thinking. Gordon Brown must be pretty smug right now, not even a year in to the coalition government and there's been a riot.
The riot is due, albeit indirectly, to him and the labour government. It is because the labour government has spend so many years recklessly borrowing and spending despite all common sense and economic theory that we are currently so far in debt. It is beacause of this huge debt that cuts have to be made everywhere (and, surprisingly enough, students are included in that). It is because of these cuts that we have a protest  - all these protests are doing is shooting the messanger.

No doubt gordon brown is smug, but it will be because of the sheer size of the mountain of shit (and really, it boggles the mind) that he left the coalition government to clean up after him.

These sorts of things are often turned violent against the organisers will, especially when in capitol cities. It's like the internet, the more people that know about something, the more likely idiots are gunna turn up, and try to start a fight.
Saying it wasn't their fault for the protest going violent is like saying it's not your fault if you leave all the doors and windows in your house open when you go on holiday and yout stuff is nicked. It's true, but they could easily have done a hell of a lot more to prevent it.

Spread the word. It should be done. Any politician who changes his policies so decisively after an election deserves to be out of a job. He categorically said that there would be no increase in fees, and is likely to vote towards tripling them.
Circumstances change, and people need to rething their policies. Forcing people to stick to old, outdated policies despite all changes in circumstance is a very bad idea.

On a more serious point, I was actually planning to attend the protests. Clegg and his party lied to us, and now it's obvious that he's nothing more than a Tory lickspittle who is so desperate for power he's willing to betray the demographic he was originally counting on.
I would advise you not to scapegoat Nick.

There is also one thing that really bothers me: the way the police are shown no sympathy. Seven policemen were injured, and and one point a fire extinguisher was thrown at them from the roof  (thankfully it missed, but it would easily have killed), yet all the papers I've read mention this in a very offhand way. If, however, a policeman in seen being in any way violent with a civillian (and there were masses of cameras there, they could not do anything in order to physically restrain the protestors other than stand in their way) the media makes a massive scandal of it lasting months.
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Leafsnail

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Re: rioting
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2010, 07:15:35 pm »

Circumstances change, and people need to rething their policies. Forcing people to stick to old, outdated policies despite all changes in circumstance is a very bad idea.
I'm sorry, but I found this absolutely hilarious.  The only thing that's changed between when he made that promise in the run up to the election and now is "the election happened".  So, basically, politicians should be allowed to drop their policies as soon as they're not aiming for votes?
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ed boy

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Re: rioting
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2010, 07:27:04 pm »

Circumstances change, and people need to rething their policies. Forcing people to stick to old, outdated policies despite all changes in circumstance is a very bad idea.
I'm sorry, but I found this absolutely hilarious.  The only thing that's changed between when he made that promise in the run up to the election and now is "the election happened".  So, basically, politicians should be allowed to drop their policies as soon as they're not aiming for votes?
The policies that get votes and the policies that get shit done often have very little overlap.

I'm not saying that he should have made a pledge like that, I'm saying that I can understand why he did it.
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Fayrik

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Re: rioting
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2010, 07:37:58 pm »

The riot is due, albeit indirectly, to him and the labour government. It is because the labour government has spend so many years recklessly borrowing and spending despite all common sense and economic theory[/u] that we are currently so far in debt. It is beacause of this huge debt that cuts have to be made everywhere (and, surprisingly enough, students are included in that). It is because of these cuts that we have a protest  - all these protests are doing is shooting the messanger.
Just have to highlight this. Look at the part in bold.
Gordon Brown actually paid a huge amount back on this defecit. He didn't do much cutting.
Now look at the underline.
Independant. Let me express this clearly: Independant bodies have assesed the situation, and have pointed out that the Tory's cuts are going to deal more damage to the economy, making the recovery slower, and more painful.
Infact, the cold figures show that everyone in the country is now poorer because of this.
The only people to gain from this, are the top two percent of earners.
That means 98% of people in britain are loosing money...
Why?

I'm all for cutting the defecit. I'd rather do it slowly, so we don't end up ruining... Well, everything.
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So THIS is how migrations start.
"Hey, dude, there's this crazy bastard digging in the ground for stuff. Let's go watch."

Leafsnail

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Re: rioting
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2010, 07:45:13 pm »

Yeah.  It's no good halving spending if you lose half your tax income due to unemployment.
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ed boy

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Re: rioting
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2010, 07:47:58 pm »

Look at this graph (I'm not using image tags because it's rather large):
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pzua-taEbPU/SwPYy1nSL4I/AAAAAAAAAMM/MDk8dZNkeGQ/s1600/week+06+Current+Account+on+the+Balance+of+Payments.jpg
The zero line is at the top. All of the years, the current accound has been below the zero line, which means that the government was borrowing money to fund its spending. Under labour, government borrowing skyrocketed.

As for independent bodies, If you look hard enought, you can find a group of people claiming anything.
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Leafsnail

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Re: rioting
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2010, 07:54:08 pm »

The thing is, the conservatives promised to match Labour spending until December 2008 anyway.  So it's not like they would've done any better.

Not to mention that in the year Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister, the deficit began to fall...
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Fayrik

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Re: rioting
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2010, 08:05:24 pm »

The zero line is at the top. All of the years, the current accound has been below the zero line, which means that the government was borrowing money to fund its spending.
...Whoa, simulantiously spot on, and yet also couldn't be further.

Quote
The zero line is at the top.
Bingo!
Quote
All of the years, the current accound has been below the zero line
Bingo!
Quote
which means that the government was borrowing money to fund its spending.
Bi--Wait what?

You see, it's there you make your fatal mistake.
Yes, there has been a negative figure on that graph. It does not mean that it has only been growing.
Infact, that's an over all figure, so it can both grow and shrink at the same time.

...And, correct me if I'm wrong.. But doesn't it shrink from 2006 to 2008?
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So THIS is how migrations start.
"Hey, dude, there's this crazy bastard digging in the ground for stuff. Let's go watch."

Euld

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Re: rioting
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2010, 10:55:42 pm »

Tsarwash

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Re: rioting
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2010, 11:05:20 pm »

Yes. do watch out for the Daily Mail. It's a piece of rabid xenophobia masquerading as a proper news source. Try the Guardian or the Telegraph.
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Shades

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Re: rioting
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2010, 04:44:26 am »

Under labour, government borrowing skyrocketed.

Just as an aside the vast majority of the borrowing towards the end was the bank bailout (which isn't included in spending but is put against the deficit) this was supported by pretty much every party.
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nuker w

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Re: rioting
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2010, 05:25:15 am »

Riots... Eh. I just don't like the vibe of them. Smashing public property and in turn causing the normal tax payer to have to pay to get it all fixed justs rubs me the wrong way. Sure, peaceful protests don't have visible effects but by the time the next election rolls around, the current PM is going to have to think long and hard about what they will do, compared to a riot, where they will likely shun and push off those peoples ideas, in the same way countries shun off the demands of terrorists, leaving the terrorists in a worse position.
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de5me7

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Re: rioting
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2010, 07:24:48 am »

The policies that get votes and the policies that get shit done often have very little overlap.

I'm not saying that he should have made a pledge like that, I'm saying that I can understand why he did it.

sounds like democracy.

Mr Clegg said it because he knew it would win him votes, his constituency is a largly student area. But he has to realise if you play people for mugs (oh i didnt mean to convince you to vote for me) then people will be pissed off.

Yeh labour did over spend alot, this is why im glad Ed ballsacs is not the current chancelor. However, the amount of capital pumped in to proping up our failed banking system to the tune of £850bn, whilst the majority of this carried out by labour (and backed by the tories) it puts alot of figures in to persepective, including the 4.2bn being cut from higher education. In addition to this, most of the 4.2bn cuts wont come in til 2014, which as the unreliable Harman noted is after the coalition is supposed to have impimented its deficit control.

also referencing Ghandi is a little out of context. He was at work 50 years ago, and he was fighting colonialisation, which is a far stronger political cause than our current issues.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2010/11/is_britain_looking_for_a_fight.html

this is a pretty reasonable analysis of the day prior to yesterday


also Millbank towers is not publically owned. Might be covered by insurance, if not the poverty stricken central london owner will have to fork out for new windows
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Tsarwash

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Re: rioting
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2010, 08:44:26 am »


There is also one thing that really bothers me: the way the police are shown no sympathy. Seven policemen were injured, and and one point a fire extinguisher was thrown at them from the roof  (thankfully it missed, but it would easily have killed), yet all the papers I've read mention this in a very offhand way. If, however, a policeman in seen being in any way violent with a civillian (and there were masses of cameras there, they could not do anything in order to physically restrain the protestors other than stand in their way) the media makes a massive scandal of it lasting months.

The police in this country don't deserve one damn bit of sympathy. Not one bit.
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Muz

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Re: rioting
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2010, 09:12:21 am »


There is also one thing that really bothers me: the way the police are shown no sympathy. Seven policemen were injured, and and one point a fire extinguisher was thrown at them from the roof  (thankfully it missed, but it would easily have killed), yet all the papers I've read mention this in a very offhand way. If, however, a policeman in seen being in any way violent with a civillian (and there were masses of cameras there, they could not do anything in order to physically restrain the protestors other than stand in their way) the media makes a massive scandal of it lasting months.

The police in this country don't deserve one damn bit of sympathy. Not one bit.

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. That's how bad it is :P
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Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
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