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[Il Palazzo]

Is this the time for Godwin's law implementation?
Yes, yes it is!

Its not religions that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so even without the convenient reason of religion.

It is not the Nazi ideology that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so, even without the convenient reason of Nazism.

[KaguroDraven]

It is not the Nazi ideology that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so, even without the convenient reason of Nazism.

I continue to believe that Hitler was a self loathing bitch who took out his self hate on the world, a self loathing bitch who could manipulate people, but a self loathing bitch none the less. He was part of many of the groups he targeted and the 'perfect race' was something he was decidedly....not. He was, technicly, Hebrew. He was shortish. He was brunette. He was brown eyed. I think he was homosexual, but I could be wrong there.

[Realmfighter]

So, your saying that without the Nazi ideology to ascribe to there were no antisemites in history before WW2?

[Il Palazzo]

To prevent further derail onto the treacherous grounds of Hitler's supposed homosexuality, I'll explain the meaning of my previous post:

The argument about people needing to be blamed for the bad stuff, not religion, is faulty, which can be shown by substituting some other(bad) idea in place of religion.

Bad ideas cause(allow, justify) people to hurt other people, so it's better to ban those ideas.

So, your saying that without the Nazi ideology to ascribe to there were no antisemites in history before WW2?

I've no idea what you're refering to. Unless you responded to KaguroDraven, in which case, I've no idea what you're refering to.

[Duke 2.0]

It is not the law that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so, even without the convenient reason of Justice.

Showing that straight-up banning ideas that can be used to hurt people means we'll miss out on all ideas. Because we are humans, and we are creative like that.

[Neonivek]

I continue to believe that Hitler was a self loathing bitch who took out his self hate on the world, a self loathing bitch who could manipulate people, but a self loathing bitch none the less. He was part of many of the groups he targeted and the 'perfect race' was something he was decidedly....not. He was, technicly, Hebrew. He was shortish. He was brunette. He was brown eyed. I think he was homosexual, but I could be wrong there.

The part many people try to cover up, including historians, is that Hitler's ideas weren't unique to himself or even Germany. Many people AROUND THE WORLD actually shared the same thoughts and oppinions such as the strong hatred of the Jews, the idea of a perfect race, and a few others including Homosexuals, Gypsies, and blaw (but of course because the world STILL hates those other groups, we are probably not going to talk about them... at all... or any of the other Genocides at the time... YAY Equality!!!). Why didn't anyone stop Hitler from the mass genocide of the Jewish people? Because who cares about them?

I am not sure if what happened after World War II was people realising that they have been being stupid or more that they hated Hitler soo much that they were willing to put aside their stupidity (actually it was probably the second) that was what changed things.

A Non-WW2 world would probably be MUCH more racist then today. Heck the Post WW2 era wasn't that much better.

Hitler is probably more accurately the most active of the already highly racist world.

Edit: I deleted the first part... I think the second deserves more focus.

[Il Palazzo]

It is not the law that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so, even without the convenient reason of Justice.

Showing that straight-up banning ideas that can be used to hurt people means we'll miss out on all ideas. Because we are humans, and we are creative like that.

Well, that was a bit of an exaggeration, I agree. Ideas should be weighted and measured by their usefulness to the society.
Still, just like outright banning, outright absolving an idea just because it needs a human hand to implement isn't a sensible approach.

[Tsarwash]

It is not the law that hurt people.

People hurt people, and they will continue to do so, even without the convenient reason of Justice.

Showing that straight-up banning ideas that can be used to hurt people means we'll miss out on all ideas. Because we are humans, and we are creative like that.

Surely the law is ideally the will of the people. Of course it doesn't often turn out like that, but it's the general idea. If I choose to smoke a spliff in my own home, or take an E and dance all night long, it's not the people who will come out and arrest me, but the 'custodians' of the law. Which is what this thread was originally about. Kind of. Of course people have the capacity to hurt others without the umbrella or religion or the law behind them. What I initially meant is that I don't like other people's religious beliefs limiting my or any body else's harmless freedoms. It wouldn't happen at all in my ideal world.

[Realmfighter]

Why would you think I want to ban a idea?

I was saying that why get rid of it, if in the end people will only find another reason to hurt each other?

the only real way to end human pain is to end all human life.

And no one will be up for that.

[fqllve]

What I initially meant is that I don't like other people's religious beliefs limiting my or any body else's harmless freedoms. It wouldn't happen at all in my ideal world.

The problem is the definition of harmless freedoms. A lot of people don't see, say, the ability to get piss-drunk, as a harmless freedom. And in some ways it really isn't one. The most common argument is social decay. We have a serious alcoholism problem in the US because drinking is not only condoned but in some places encouraged. Alcohol contributes to dangerous and sometimes illegal behavior, destroys families, and in extreme cases prevents people from actually living their lives. "Alcohol is bad" is a reasonable position to take. Since most people see religion as a form of moral guidance, and see laws as a vehicle of moral control, it makes sense that they'd try to use laws to promote their religious morality.

Not that I disagree with you. I think laws are a method of social control and have no business being conflated with morality. But even then, alcoholism is socially undesirable (but so is turning large swathes of your population into criminals). And removing religion from the equation doesn't necessarily stop people from trying to impose their systems of morality on one another.

[ed boy]

I noticed a fair bit of the "I don't like people trying to convert me" vibe, so I thought I would post a bit on that. Note that I do not condone such action, nor do I claim that all people who perform such actions think like this, but rather that some do.

My cousin does not like to eat his vegetables. During meal times, there will usually be a point at which he has eaten the rest of his meal, leaving the vegetables till last, and then try to refuse to eat them. As far as he's concerned, there is no reason for him to eat his vegetables - they taste nasty and he doesn't like them. He's quite convinced that he's mature and responsible enough to decide what he wants to eat, and insists this regularly. He even argues that his parents are robbing him of the right to choose the very food that sustains him - and surely there can be no greater crime than this.

To a lot of the religous people, other people (be they atheist or of another religion) are like children that won't eat their vegetables (follow the right religion). Sure, they may make a lot of arguments about how they're mature and responsible to choose what they eat (what religion they follow), and they even argue that it's their right to make such decision regardless of other people's influence. But it is the religous people who know best (know the right religion), and they can't just stand around and do nothing while these poor misguided people have an unhealthy diet (go to hell).

[Realmfighter]

Every religion, idea or anything has people who act like that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yes, a saddiningly large number of people do not understand that others can have a ligitimate outlook that is not theirs.

[Realmfighter]

It stops being sad when you just accept them for who they are.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's sort of difficult when I can't get them to stop calling me a sinner who must repent.