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[obliza]

Update: Reply #8

Dwarf Fortress is possibly the greatest game I have played,
It's infinitely complex, I love complexity.
It's challenging, I love to be tested.

But what I don't get is why no designer of the game has spent a second on making it plausible to learn. I suppose I get the benefits this has on the community who play the game, the people who stick it out here have to make an enormous effort to learn the game, meaning they are presumable remotely more intelligent and have more patience then the average person and most probably not 12 year olds who have the attention span of a turkey.

Learning to create worlds, learning to create food to survive, learning absolutely everything in the game.

By leaving the game and looking on the internet.
Yes I would say my ratio of playing the game to learning how to play the game is about 1minute per 30minutes.

Sure you can press the ? button in game to read certain articles, presumably you learn how to open and close them, then the challenge of even scrolling down the page troubled me at first because I'm not used to playing games like this.

You can also click on an item and press enter to view what it is.
For example
"Hmm a Wooden blah blah blah, what is this exactly I wonder?...I know I can press enter to view details about it.....it says 'This is a wooden blah blah blah'..Well thanks game that tells me nothing I already knew its name I wanted information about it..guess ill go online and search for the item on the wiki see what its used for as the games does not actually tell you what it does or how its used in anyway at all.

But it just gets so tiring, like the other day I made an army of 10soliders, sent them to attack an invading titan I believe it was, but they never came near him, I spent a couple of hours reading articles looking at the military screen and various others to try and figure out what they are doing but an elven caravan eventually came and the titan was taken care of by the guards so I dropped it.
But in this time I play the game, the actual game for about 30minutes, it took me a couple of hours to attempt to figure out how to solve the problem that would normally seem so simplistic.

Or for example I tried playing adventure mode the other day. No obvious controls, no obvious goals, no obvious way to pass the damn river infront of me, no idea if I need health or food or am hurt or how to attack enemies or anything,

No offical tutorials or noob guide or anything. Instead I started to go online again, watch videos of guys read un organized articles until I thought screw it, I'll just go back to dwarf fortress.

The thing that gets me is I've designed games myself, I've played millions and I know how easy it is to make tutorials and starter guides to games, This is the greatest game I've ever seen, why can't time just be spent on how to play the game?.

An interactive tutorials or 20 even that go through in game how to play it, use camera manipulation, voice overs even if you want to stretch. I don't want to leave the game every five seconds to learn to play the game.

Oh and a final note I'm not trying to rant, purely constructive criticism I love this game I would just love to see it have a learning curve. Not a third party one.

[Ieb]

So true. Although I have the tendency to use user-made guides or Wiki's more than ingame help, no matter what I'm playing, so even if DF would have a super-awesome tutorial, I probably would have skipped it because real men need no manuals!

I'll learn the game, standing on top of a pile of dorf corpses.

Anyway.

Some things are easier to learn than others. The first problem usually comes when you hit the "what the hell you mean I don't have a bed, I WANT TO BUILD ONE". Then you figure out, one way or another, that you need a workshop for it. And then it becomes clear that you need to make everything you could place somewhere at those workshops.

The military though, now that's a hurdle. It took a lot of trial for me, but at last I know how it works. Even with the Kill order being bugged, but you can just Move them to place and they attack just as well. But someone playing for the first time would probably go "oh god what the fuck" at looking at the Military screen. It can be a tad overwhelming, even when you manage to make a squad, you still need to activate them and that takes place somewhere completely else.

Seriously, a while back I wrote a simplistic guide for DF to set up a basic fort and even how the military can be set up.

It took me five hours to write that "simple guide".

I figure Toady hit the same thing I did. Writing tutorials is boring as all hell, time is better spent at making something fun. Although considering that I'm just a player, and he's the dev, that mentality probably doesn't hold true for him. I hope. But if it does, eh.

I know how you feel, man, and all that jazz to that.

[Larry421]

Obligatory "Game is still in alpha, interface improvements are due after content gets added" post.

Sorry to be a dick about it 

Though I do agree, to an extent. The first time I saw the new military screen my brain shut down in self-defense.
Even now, I'm struggling to set up rotating squads of guards

[G-Flex]

The learning curve does suck, and you'll always have to look at documentation from time to time, but the Documentation-Reading:Time Playing ratio definitely improves as time goes on.


Obviously there could be improvements in tons of places, some more urgent than others (the new military screen), but the game is in early enough development that I can understand leaving documentation up to the community at this point.

[thvaz]

The main reason is that the game is far away from finished. Why spent time teaching about something that may change in the future?

That said, I learn to play just reading "How to Survive your First Winter" in whatever version there were in september 2006. Granted, the game is a lot more complex now.

[Monsterfurby]

I get what you mean and I understand it. Yes, the game is frustrating to learn - frustrating enough to keep me, having a rather short attention span, from actually trying to build up a decent fortress.

However, there is one sentence in your post that I find somewhat ignorant:

But what I don't get is why no designer of the game has spent a second on making it plausible to learn.

The answer to this is easy: First of all, if designer means programmer, you are looking for the singular, i.e. "the designer has not". Toady One and Three-Toe are the only ones actively involved in this game's development, and afaik Toady is the only one actually programming it. Also, he has emphasized countless times that this is a project he does first and foremost for himself. Since his taste in games seems to be similar to mine and that of countless others around here, I'm okay with that. Not trying to act as self-appointed press representative here, but Toady does actually pay heed to what the community says, but his priorities understandably do not include making a tutorial.

Why is that?

Simply enough - look at the development page. Is he supposed to write a new tutorial whenever a game-changing feature is implemented? This game is in a sort of alpha-state (as emphasized in the opening screen), it is free, it is one man's project for himself and again, it is far from finished. Oh, and it is not Minecraft.

The thing that gets me is I've designed games myself, I've played millions and I know how easy it is to make tutorials and starter guides to games, This is the greatest game I've ever seen, why can't time just be spent on how to play the game?.

Step 1. Finish making the game.
Step 2. Write documentation.

Also, the community is doing a very good job at keeping the learning curve down. I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to read the community-made tutorials, you might want to check back in around 5 years when we have arrived at around version 0.70.00. Maybe you will be happy then.

Thank you for your attention, good night.

EDIT: Oh, forgot the most important part. The only documentation this game actually needs is an explanation of its idea of Fun.

[plynxis]

dude, there *are* tutorials however. people made them for the same reason newbies need them. not to mention the "lazy newb packs" that bundle pretty much every addon you'd want in a pack and all you do is start to play. there's no reason for a tutorial to be hardcoded in when there's a lot better and wider appealing tutorials made already by players - and lots of em.

the magmawiki is excellent if you want details on something. if you want a complete tutorial, there's this and this.

an important part of this game is learning to enjoy losing spectacularly. if you cant do that yet, make learning it a priority. you'll learn faster, learn on your own and enjoy the game a lot more.

and dont be afraid to try insane stuff even if it means everybody dying horrible deaths drowning in their own feces. thats the real fun bet you didnt have a tantrum spiral yet, hehe

EDIT: Oh, forgot the most important part. The only documentation this game actually needs is an explanation of its idea of Fun.

edit: +2

[shadow_archmagi]

Why no designer of the game has spent a second on making it plausible to learn.

Well, for one thing, it's because there's only one designer. Toady.

For another, it's because the game is constantly changing, so if he were to write up explanations and tooltips they'd just have to be redone next month. That's why the community writes explanations: because this huge pool of brilliant people can keep up!

Finally, there is a manual. He he he.

[obliza]

@Monsterfurby
I agree with just about everything that has been said so far and I would like to apologize for a few of my statements as I believe my frustration has got the better of me. I really was not trying to rant and I now realize some were are rude and inconsiderate, as it is a colossal project for just a small team.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I get the game is a work in progress, but I don't think a tutorial that covers the basics is too much to ask for, I believe it is fundamental. I have been playing the game a lot monsterfurby and I am willing to read everything the community has to offer, which I have been doing as it is the only way to learn this game.
And no, not documentation, the learning curve is part of the game it is supposed to be in the game consult any game developer in the world on the matter. Even look up the learning curve Wikipedia article. (I presume)

@plynxis
I am well aware of everything you have suggested, I have looked extensively into all of them already. What worked for me was doing the afteractionreporter tutorials as they were done extremely well, I have also used all the advice from the 'lazy newb pack'.



The thread is not about me and learning the game for myself, its just my view on what needs to be done, I'm perfectly able to find just about all the information I need to play the game and if not I am well aware that after searching the forums and being unable to find a thread to suit my needs I can simply create one myself which I have done before.

I also made the point about adventure mode as it is completely separate to dwarf fortress, it like a new project using the same engine, and it once again has the vertical learning curve problem.
And I say again I am enjoying the game, I love the game, I'm perfectly happy using the resources available, I just believe that showing people how to play needs to be done in game.

[Monsterfurby]

@Monsterfurby
I agree with just about everything that has been said so far and I would like to apologize for a few of my statements as I believe my frustration has got the better of me. I really was not trying to rant and I now realize some were are rude and inconsiderate, as it is a colossal project for just a small team.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I get the game is a work in progress, but I don't think a tutorial that covers the basics is too much to ask for, I believe it is fundamental. I have been playing the game a lot monsterfurby and I am willing to read everything the community has to offer, which I have been doing as it is the only way to learn this game.
And no, not documentation, the learning curve is part of the game it is supposed to be in the game consult any game developer in the world on the matter. Even look up the learning curve Wikipedia article. (I presume)

Alright, sorry if I went a bit overboard there as well. Truth of the matter is, I actually felt that the documentation was sufficient to enjoy the game. Then again, I also started playing Europa Universalis without once looking at the manual many years ago and have always found my way around its follow-up games. But I agree with you that this (i.e. proper in-game documentation/orientation) is not a matter of taste. One can objectively say that there is a very steep learning curve in this game which is not in any way alleviated by a tutorial or such. The necessity of one at this point, of course, is debatable, and we probably disagree on that part.
Now, UI improvements to make the game handle more intuitively - that is something that will be quite necessary in the near future.

[DG]

I also made the point about adventure mode as it is completely separate to dwarf fortress, it like a new project using the same engine, and it once again has the vertical learning curve problem.
And I say again I am enjoying the game, I love the game, I'm perfectly happy using the resources available, I just believe that showing people how to play needs to be done in game.

Not sure if you found this page but it's probably the most useful when learning to adventure:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Adventure_Mode_quick_reference

[GTM]

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but relevant link: http://www.hiwiller.com/2010/04/29/if-mario-was-designed-in-2010/

Yeah, I'm totally being the cantankerous old grandpa going on about walking to school, no shoes, uphill both ways.  I apologize for that.

That said, does anyone ever actually USE in-game tutorials or do they just skip them anyway?  I always thought most people sorta jumped into a regular game mode and messed around, then later looked at wikis and faqs for character builds, game mechanics, and advanced strategies.  Nowadays consulting external sources is pretty normal, I'd argue.

If that's true, then I'd disagree with the OP about the importance of tutorials in particular.   

[Monsterfurby]

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but relevant link: http://www.hiwiller.com/2010/04/29/if-mario-was-designed-in-2010/

Great site. Having worked for a developer of DS games, I can only imagine what the lotcheck (i.e. internal quality assurance) report on Super Mario Bros. would say... ("No tutorial, no explained controls, bloody fix that!")
Oh, and to keep the thread on track: I actually think that it is not so much a tutorial issue as it is a UI issue. Other roguelikes just drop you into the game as well, but occasionally they surprise with a really good interface (ADoM comes to mind). Of course, DF IS more complex than all of them taken together..

[obliza]

That said, does anyone ever actually USE in-game tutorials or do they just skip them anyway?  I always thought most people sorta jumped into a regular game mode and messed around, then later looked at wikis and faqs for character builds, game mechanics, and advanced strategies.  Nowadays consulting external sources is pretty normal, I'd argue.
If that's true, then I'd disagree with the OP about the importance of tutorials in particular.   

I've seen that comic before yea and I appreciate it a lot, the thing is however the complexity of this game is through the roof, I never read manuals or watch tutorials in simplistic games like mario, but..(thinking of example)...consider Eve online, it is probably the most complex mainstream game in terms of right from the beginning, the tutorial at the start really helps in grasping the basics. Whereas dwarf fortress explodes you with information right from the beginning for example..you generate a freaking world. how daunting was 'plan for the journey carefully' the first time you saw it?

@Monsterfurby
I'd have to agree with you on the interface angle a much more..'friendly' interface would probably work just as well. Ever played nethack? It's a similar situation with that I think, nethack is however not that complex and with a friendlier interface it would probably be much easier.

[nordak]

Learning cliff = 3 days
The curve after the cliff = 2 weeks