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[G-Flex]

I'd hit that. Oh man would I hit that...

I mean really, this chick has me cornered in a subway car? This is a good thing.

I like how in a discussion about sexism against women, your immediate response to a picture of a girl in a non-sexual context is "I'd hit that". That kind of attitude definitely doesn't ever make people uncomfortable and is definitely constructive.

So you are telling me right now that you would fight a woman if you thought you could take her?

When the hell did I say that? Of course not. But if someone's picking a fight with me, gender won't be a factor in what I do. I would fight a woman in any case where I would also fight a man, provided everything else about them and the situation is equal.

Manners can be sexist. It's ok because it's tradition. Should it be ok? Nope. But it is.

What does "It's okay, but it shouldn't be okay" even mean? That it's wrong, but socially acceptable? So are a lot of things, and if you think it "shouldn't be okay", why even do them? Decades ago it was considered "okay" to treat black people as effectively being subhuman. Would you be saying the same thing about that back then? If not, why do sexist traditions get a free pass now?

If a social tradition is harmful or wrong, then don't adhere to it. It's disingenuous and hurtful to speak and act like something is "okay" simply because it's popularly done or a part of tradition, even while simultaneously saying you know why it's wrong.

[forsaken1111]

I'd hit that. Oh man would I hit that...

I mean really, this chick has me cornered in a subway car? This is a good thing.

I like how in a discussion about sexism against women, your immediate response to a picture of a girl in a non-sexual context is "I'd hit that". That kind of attitude definitely doesn't ever make people uncomfortable and is definitely constructive.

Well I'd rather try to date her than punch her. On topic, I think that sexism is as outdated a concept as chivalry.

I was actually yelled at once by some old woman for not holding the door open for her, as if this were my job. At the time I was carrying two heavy pieces of computer equipment, and yet this woman thought she could dress me down for not holding the door open for her to walk through. I promptly walked away and ignore her absurdities. It really is a bit ridiculous, and I think a bit insulting to women. A woman is certainly capable of pulling out her own chair, opening her own door, and (usually) paying for her own meal. Gender should not be the sole bases of behavior in any situation.

Now if you like her, or want to impress her, and you think she enjoys you holding the door... sure go for it. In that case it isn't because she is female, it is because you know she enjoys it. That isn't sexism. I know my girlfriend thinks traditional gender roles are a bit silly, and would probably feel extremely uncomfortable if someone tried to pull out her chair for her. I do hold the door for her sometimes, but she does the same thing for me and when we go out we take turns paying depending on who happens to have money.

[rawr359]

I'd hit that. Oh man would I hit that...

I mean really, this chick has me cornered in a subway car? This is a good thing.

I like how in a discussion about sexism against women, your immediate response to a picture of a girl in a non-sexual context is "I'd hit that". That kind of attitude definitely doesn't ever make people uncomfortable and is definitely constructive.

So you are telling me right now that you would fight a woman if you thought you could take her?

When the hell did I say that? Of course not. But if someone's picking a fight with me, gender won't be a factor in what I do. I would fight a woman in any case where I would also fight a man, provided everything else about them and the situation is equal.

Manners can be sexist. It's ok because it's tradition. Should it be ok? Nope. But it is.

What does "It's okay, but it shouldn't be okay" even mean? That it's wrong, but socially acceptable? So are a lot of things, and if you think it "shouldn't be okay", why even do them? Decades ago it was considered "okay" to treat black people as effectively being subhuman. Would you be saying the same thing about that back then? If not, why do sexist traditions get a free pass now?

If a social tradition is harmful or wrong, then don't adhere to it. It's disingenuous and hurtful to speak and act like something is "okay" simply because it's popularly done or a part of tradition, even while simultaneously saying you know why it's wrong.

"this is ok, but it shouldn't be" means.. Well, its kind of hard to explain. Think of it this way: back in, say, the 1920's, when you thought of a woman as someone who cooks and cleans, it would be normal. If you voiced that opinion, the response would be "haha, yep". Morally, this is wrong and should never have happened. But it happened, and it took years for people to start realizing that it shouldn't be going on, then it took years to change it. Now, some of these sexist practices are buried in our tradition. Most of these are positive. But those small negative ones, like.. Okay, right now I can't name one, my mind's not in this. But think of a negative sexist stereotype that is commonly in practice today. Notice that it's probably being changed by the sex it offends.

Uh... I forgot where I was going with this.

Anyway, I wouldn't adhere to this tradition if I thought it was harming anyone. But, as it stands, its not, so I don't care.

[smigenboger]

Two members of the same sex who love each other and want to reap the health insurance plans two opposite-gendered people are allowed? This cannot stand!

This place has been inflammatory lately. Can we move the personal attacks and arguments into another thread? This one's supposed to be about finding ways to tell someone you like them while making yourself feel like you got the message across without the fear of the possible rejection you could get if you simply said you like the person...or something.

[ChairmanPoo]

Dude, I've tried to achieve that for years without success. The best I've gotten to is asking repeatedly for the prospective girl to join me to some intimate-yet-not-necessarily so activity, like the cinema or such.
If my offer gets rejected a couple of times, I take it as a general no, as, even if they didn't think I was aiming for "something more than friendship", a girl who won't go with you to the cinema as a friend will hardly be willing to go further than that.

Of course, given how the first time I did this ended up, it might well be that they think I'm trying to freeload again...

[smigenboger]

That avatar, are there more like that? It's entrancing.

...Anyway, male or female, I usually go to their house or vice versa, get their dramatic backstory, do something fun, and see if I like them as a friend, otherwise, or not really at all. On a second visit, I try to go out somewhere and do something both people enjoy that's not too cliche. That's usually when I judge if they're worth hanging around with, perhaps pursuing, or not interesting.

[Enzo]

This place has been inflammatory lately. Can we move the personal attacks and arguments into another thread?

That's a good idea. Brb, starting "Personal Attacks and Arguments" topic...

[G-Flex]

Anyway, I wouldn't adhere to this tradition if I thought it was harming anyone. But, as it stands, its not, so I don't care.

Yes, it is. It plays right into the tradition of women being submissive and cared for, and men being pressured into the "provider"/dominant role. It probably doesn't seem that way at first glance, but it's true. After all, why do you think those traditions even exist? If a man doesn't pay for his date, or doesn't hold a door open for a woman, he's seen as weak or unchivalrous, and women are taught to expect to be taken care of in such a fashion, and to play the submissive role.

[rawr359]

Anyway, I wouldn't adhere to this tradition if I thought it was harming anyone. But, as it stands, its not, so I don't care.

Yes, it is. It plays right into the tradition of women being submissive and cared for, and men being pressured into the "provider"/dominant role. It probably doesn't seem that way at first glance, but it's true. After all, why do you think those traditions even exist? If a man doesn't pay for his date, or doesn't hold a door open for a woman, he's seen as weak or unchivalrous, and women are taught to expect to be taken care of in such a fashion, and to play the submissive role.

That's a good point. If I ever meet a woman and I try to pay for her whatever and she's not cool with it, more power to her. But I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. This still isn't an issue for me.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being nice. I just think people should be nice in a sense that is less informed by gender. I mean, I pay for my girlfriend when I can, but she does the same, and everybody's happy and neither of us really expects it from the other.

[Lordinquisitor]

And whatever you do: Do it fast. Trust me. Nothing hurts as much as waiting too long and then she gets another guy. Don`t.Wait.Ever.

[G-Flex]

That can go either way. Personally, most of my relationships started because I just got to know people, made friends, and eventually friends became more than friends, and so on. You don't want to rush most of the time.

On the other hand, being open/honest is important, too. If you're attracted to someone, it's a good idea to make that clear in some fashion or another, whichever is most comfortable.

[The Willow Wisp]

First off, thank you. The Sexism arguement made my day. Wish I wasn't too late to chime in on it, but best not to throw gas on a dying forest fire.

Now to the on topic advice.

I had a situation similar to the thread's author, but mine was signifigantly more selfish. I became friends with this guy and girl who rode my bus. They were both awesome people and liked about 80% of the same stuff I do, which is really special since I'm a nerd living in Alabama. It was three months after I met them that I figured out they were dating, and had been for a year and a half. About a month ago I made a very stupid decision and told him that I liked her and that, if he wasn't dating her, I would definately try to. He was suprisingly cool about it, as was she when he told her. He actually went as far as to say that if they did break up and me and the girl did start dating, he'd feel better knowing she was dating me and not some random guy.

So.....I gues my advice is be honest. Don't be blunt, but say what you mean. If she's intersted it could happen. If she's not, then at least you know you were honest and hopefully she was too.

[Urist Mcinternetuser]

Alright, so I have no personal experience with this whole asking not-best-friends out business (My girlfriend and I were already best friends, then we admitted our love for each other), but I think.... Wait, could you give us a little more information? How long have you known each other? How close are you two? How close are they? My advice is to get as close (without being annoying, or stalkerish) to her as you can, get to know her really well, make her feel comfortable around you. I know that getting in the "friend trap" can always backfire, but it's better than asking her out if you aren't close. Good luck.

[DJ]

My policy is to only hit people in self-defence or defence of my friends, and only after all diplomatic options have been exhausted. But if it comes to that I'd hit a woman with all I got, which would hopefully include beer bottles, billiard cues and bar stools.

As far as paying for stuff on dates is concerned, whoever does the inviting should pay. If I'm the one that's doing all the inviting than the woman is obviously not seriously interested in me and it's time to move on.

Back to OP, you should just ask her directly. It always seems inappropriate, but every time I did that I was glad I did it.