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[G-Flex]

And as for suppression of art and public expression, if the majority of people don't want to see penis murals everywhere, they shouldn't have to. If they do, go ahead. If the majority of people don't want bigotism and hatred to run rampant in their society, it shouldn't be allowed to. If they do, I bet it already is.

Civil rights are not something to be decided by majority vote. It should be pretty obvious why putting, say, discrimination against minorities to a popular vote would be an incredibly stupid idea.

[Argembarger]

It's really more of a de facto thing.

But, it's kind of what happens. Discrimination is allowed until enough people say "stop it". And then we get the Civil Rights Act.

It's still a de facto thing because it's really really hard to adequately enforce it.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf, that's a really ugly story... pisses me off a bit too, because I have a lot of respect for the BBC.

Yeah... me too.  It's not like it's exclusive to them, though... I mean, there aren't very many older woman on TV at all here.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You actually think that there's no such thing as race or sex based discrimination in the United States? I'm honestly not even sure what to say to that.

You actually go along with the assumption that of course the United States is just as much of a racist, sexist hellhole as it was before the Civil Rights Movement, because everyone knows that's true?

Also: Yes, it's suboptimal for the government to intervene in matters of art, business, and so forth. However, do you really think art (or business) is really some kind of free-for-all lovefest where you're judged solely on the real value of what you do in the first place? Of course it isn't. Corporate interests and social antipatterns are at play constantly. The government's role is to step in to correct for those when necessary.

Nope, I know it isn't. I also know that it is a horrific shame, and artist's rights in the United States need serious work. Adding an additional problem in the form of the government will not solve the former, however.

Would something like this suffice?

Very well. The BBC must be punished for their actions, and it made known that being fired based on refusing to change yourself to fit an ideal is not allowed and can be reported as abuse on the part of the employer. However, as the BBC is a United Kingdom corporation, even such actions being carried out will have no effect on the United States, and does not alter my argument about said US.

[Virex]

I would like to know who here has ever consciously considered the surprisingly large discrepancy between the amount of elder men and women on TV. It ought to make you rage...

You actually think that there's no such thing as race or sex based discrimination in the United States? I'm honestly not even sure what to say to that.

You actually go along with the assumption that of course the United States is just as much of a racist, sexist hellhole as it was before the Civil Rights Movement, because everyone knows that's true?

I don't know how representative US universities are for the whole of th US, but you should probably read this

[G-Flex]

But, it's kind of what happens. Discrimination is allowed until enough people say "stop it". And then we get the Civil Rights Act.

"Enough people" does not mean "a majority vote", and a lot of those issues are decided through courts, not legislation.

You actually think that there's no such thing as race or sex based discrimination in the United States? I'm honestly not even sure what to say to that.

You actually go along with the assumption that of course the United States is just as much of a racist, sexist hellhole as it was before the Civil Rights Movement, because everyone knows that's true?

No, which is why I never said that in the first place. I know it's easy to argue against things you made up and that I never said, but it doesn't help matters.

[LordNagash]

You actually think that there's no such thing as race or sex based discrimination in the United States? I'm honestly not even sure what to say to that.

You actually go along with the assumption that of course the United States is just as much of a racist, sexist hellhole as it was before the Civil Rights Movement, because everyone knows that's true?

Except he didn't even imply that, let alone say it. So what is your point here - because things aren't the same as they were before the Civil Rights movement, there's no racism or sexism?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

[

You actually think that there's no such thing as race or sex based discrimination in the United States? I'm honestly not even sure what to say to that.

You actually go along with the assumption that of course the United States is just as much of a racist, sexist hellhole as it was before the Civil Rights Movement, because everyone knows that's true?

No, which is why I never said that in the first place. I know it's easy to argue against things you made up and that I never said, but it doesn't help matters.

I'm trying to point out that I never denied that racists and sexists existed in the United States, just not in the magnatude that they can be reduced through any other method than waiting for them to abandon their backwards ideas on their own, and that there seems to be some sort of assumption among people that the US is some horrifically racist nation on the whole.

I don't know how representative US universities are for the whole of th US, but you should probably read this

My thoughts on the matter: The number of female and racial minority faculty members who feel they are being treated unfairly may or may just be a matter of perception that as these groups are considered oppressed, bad things happening to them are automatically caused by that percieved oppression. The study only showed the percived treatment as seen by the faculty, and while it warrents an investigation to see if this perception is accurate to reality or not, it does not automatically prove the existance of racism/sexism in said institute.

[Virex]

You can rest peacefully, I know from experience that Holland is worse.

[Argembarger]

I believe that's the entire point of anything that is "de facto". It means that it goes on regardless of legislation. Of course the courts handle it; that's the whole point.

The whole reason anything got done to stop most of the racism in the South was that the South wasn't allowed to decide for themselves that racism was OK. Because if the could, they would have. And they did ignore the Civil Rights Acts, a lot. It was de facto discrimination.

And as for suppression of art and public expression, if the majority of people don't want to see penis murals everywhere, they shouldn't have to. If they do, go ahead. If the majority of people don't want bigotism and hatred to run rampant in their society, it shouldn't be allowed to. If they do, I bet it already is.

In the south, it was, and did. It took a while before the general opinion of the United States started to line up with the de facto state of affairs in the South. Like, over a century, if you want to start keeping track at the Civil War.

Oh, and the majority of the population in some areas of the South were slaves, who weren't "allowed" to decide anything. So the street runs both ways, I guess. It was wrong, it got better, the US didn't become a horrible dictatorship in the deal. That is the point I want to make.

[Leafsnail]

Very well. The BBC must be punished for their actions, and it made known that being fired based on refusing to change yourself to fit an ideal is not allowed and can be reported as abuse on the part of the employer. However, as the BBC is a United Kingdom corporation, even such actions being carried out will have no effect on the United States, and does not alter my argument about said US.

You didn't specify the US - you seemed to be denying its existence outright.  It's worth noting that the BBC is well known as a pretty liberal place, though...

[Makrond]

People routinely question whether Barack Obama is an American citizen, purely because he's not white. People accuse him of being a Muslim (and thus a terrorist), Kenyan (and thus a monkey - yes people still believe this) and of wanting to enslave all white people because of his skin colour.

You still want to argue there's not a significant problem with racism in the US?

No country is perfect. I live in Australia, a country that banned Asian immigration until 1972, that took Aboriginal children from their families for what amounted to a eugenics program, and that continues to have serious problems with racial tension and workplace discrimination.\

This isn't even beginning to get into the issue of sexism, an issue that has been fought against for longer than race discrimination and which hasn't managed to get much further.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You didn't specify the US - you seemed to be denying its existence outright.  It's worth noting that the BBC is well known as a pretty liberal place, though...

I was originally responding to Vector, who specified the US Government, so I assumed we were going from there. Obviously racism and sexism still exist as a problem to be adressed in the world as a whole, but my opinion states that the US has solved it's problem with racism and sexism in the active sense, only requireing a passive effort to prevent its resurgance.

[Argembarger]

The Ku Klux Klan is still allowed to exist as an organization in the US. That's pretty RAEGworthy if you ask me.

[Virex]

You didn't specify the US - you seemed to be denying its existence outright.  It's worth noting that the BBC is well known as a pretty liberal place, though...

I was originally responding to Vector, who specified the US Government, so I assumed we were going from there. Obviously racism and sexism still exist as a problem to be adressed in the world as a whole, but my opinion states that the US has solved it's problem with racism and sexism in the active sense, only requireing a passive effort to prevent its resurgance.

Did you even glance over the link I provided? If not, you should, it'll be an eye opener.


Edit: I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem is not people who discriminate/are sexist/are bigots. They're easy to spot. The problem is people who think there is no problem and that the world of today is fine.