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[Leafsnail]

That sounds like a big "Fuck you!" to the people who wanted to confirm him.

Thanks for interjecting on Zathras' behalf. Again.

It doesn't.  It's responding specifically to Pandarsenic's suggestion that he spend the entire rest of the game wasting his ability on volunteers.

And I'll interject on the behalf of a virtually confirmed townie whenever I like, thank you.

Does this really seem like something a townie would do? Make up his mind early on Day 1, and then never change his mind, or even his focus?

If he's found scum?  Yes.

[Ottofar]

Ottofar:

Well.
I guess Pandar might be a dopp. Not too sure.
Zathras, as stated, is probably an alien.
I'm gonna go sleep.

This post demands explanation.
While you're explaining it, please tell me if this explanation makes sense to you:  You're an Alien Survivor who used Pandar's obvscumminess as an opportunity to come out to the scum team so you can help them win at LYLO.

It could, but no.

Also, explanation could be posting exhausted, just to check in at the day end.

And the lack of chains. And me not thinking about Pandar until then.

[Toaster]

Ottofar:  That's a pretty terrible explanation, especially considering you didn't even bother to comment to anyone else talking to you, or on anything else that's happened today.

Kamina:  Noted.  Looking forward to your "proper analysis."

Leafsnail:  I can't help but notice you still haven't answered Kamina's question.

[Leafsnail]

I thought I did, but apparently I only implied it and didn't say it explicitly.

Yes, I do.

[Zathras]

Janus, your killing of Org was suspicious, as I said, plus your request to be blocked; your "missing" the point of Jim's first message of the day adds to this. I am not sure you are scum, but you are high on my list of possibilities.

I didn't miss the point of his first post of the day, I missed the first post of the page here. It wasn't until later that he actually explained that he was assuming that you had gone off on your own because there was no Exterminator kill. So really you're going after me for the Org thing and ... what else? Nothing really.

Yeah... I don't have much more than that on you, that's why I'm not voting you. You seem scummy to me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'll be watching you closely, though.

I still don't get the bit why you wouldn't actually want to block me if you thought I was scum. It's not like you have a physical role that would set off a PWV (if I were lying, but that would mean someone else killed Org and hasn't claimed it...).

As my note to Kamina made embarrassingly clear, the non-physicality of the thing was not immediately obvious to me until I reread my role PM in preparation of sending the night action. This is my first paranormal, so it being a remote action was not clear on my mind. Yes, I was worried you were setting me up to be killed by sentry guns or somesuch, but this was a baseless worry.

I will support a lynch of MysteriousBluePuppet if people decide to go for it. I think Web is scummier, but MBP's absence hurts the game more. Hanging either of these scumbags is OK with me.

If you want him lynched, vote for him. Hanging back until you see a consensus is scummy, even in a case like this.

They should both be hanged, but for different reasons. Web is the scummiest, so I'm voting him as that's how one plays the game -- lynch the scummiest. MBP hanging, on the other hand, is more of a meta-game argument: his absence hurts the game, and his replacement would give a scummy player an unwarranted clean slate; the game would proceed better if he hangs. He is certainly scummy enough to deserve to hang. But I only have one vote, so I'm telling people that if we wish to pursue a meta-gaming lynch for the benefit of all players, I'll support it. It's better than having two inactive players murking the waters; it interferes with all our abilities to successfully scumhunt or narrow possibilities down. The game would be better with him gone, so if I can help make it so, I will.

Either that or you really think that you have the entire Dopp team + the Exterminator nailed down (pro tip: in any game, if you think this you're either scum or wrong 95% of the time)

I certainly don't think I have all the scum nailed down. In fact, I went as far as saying "I'm not sure you're scum", didn't I? Saying that I did, in the face of that statement in the post you were replying to, seems like a wilful misreading and misrepresentation of the statement, doesn't it? Also known as a "lie"...

Even if he comes back now, it is too late for him. I would go as far as to suggest people here who host their own games to remember his attitude this game and prevent him from joining games in the future. If only we had some sort of a thread to help mods keep track of people's attendance... but we don't seem to want that either.

Not really going to help this game... But it's something to consider.

It is, isn't it? Offtopic question: why did you never submit Sorcerer's I results to the new attendance tracking thread?

When you say things like this:

No, I'll decide what to do later, and we'll see where that leaves us tomorrow, but I'll only dance this dance once. The purpose of the power is not to dick about with it where it does no good, it's to prevent kills as it did last night. If you guys wish to lynch me for it, then go ahead, we'll discuss that when the time comes.

I assume you are not going to follow along with the plan.

But no, you are right. The only plausible explanation for why I came out voting for you today is because I read about it in scumchat, instead of the astronomically improbable explanation that when you defiantly stated you were not going to follow the plan I believed you.

To put it bluntly, Zathras, why are you being retarded? You don't have to believe what I say, but you do need to think it through. Why is it so improbable that I believed you when you were being a defiant fucker about being confirmed?

Nevermind, I see now that you were indeed too retarded to read my post in context, and merely went mad with rage at the thought that people weren't submitting to your will and following your commands. It wasn't scumchat, it was brain damage.

To make it clear for you: I don't take orders from you, boy. I will play how I choose, and your barking like a mad chihuahua has no bearing on my decision making process. I decided it was a good idea to waste my action one night if it would help assuage doubts, but once is enough. The blocking will be henceforth used how I decide is best, with the intent of preventing another kill and nailing more scum. Suggestions are welcome; orders can be shoved up the issuer's ass.

I think it laughable that people were actually thinking following Pandar's advice was good for town. Yeah, no ulterior motives there....


Webadict: please grace us with your presence. Questions for you: what is your read of JTF, Toaster and Arembarger? Would you support a lynch of MBP? Do you buy my warden claim now? Who do you think performed the Dopp kill last night? Do you have speculations on the lack of an exterminator kill? Who are the scummiest on your list at the moment? What have you done in favour of town in the entire game?

[KaminaSquirtle]

Unvote.

Jim:  I think this is just how Leafsnail is, just look around the other forums, this seems consistent with his posting style in general.
However, he just rocketed up my scum list.

I thought I did, but apparently I only implied it and didn't say it explicitly.

Yes, I do.

No you didn't.  You avoided it until someone other that I pointed it out.  And I can see why.  Whichever way you answer, you would put yourself in trouble.  If you suddenly didn't find me scum, then you would be accused of giving up way too quickly, and waffling.  Or so you would think.  I personally could see a townie not finding me scum after that, but maybe others' opinions would differ.  And if you still find me scum, as you have said you do, you open a new can of worms.

So, I'm scum, eh?  Then there's a good possibility of Zathras being scum too.  However, you said of him:

And I'll interject on the behalf of a virtually confirmed townie whenever I like, thank you.

Lies.  He's not at all a virtually confirmed townie if I'm scum.  We could very easily be scumbuddies.  Yet you don't even mention this possibility at all.
In fact, if I'm scum, then a whole a shit ton of possibilities arise around Zathras.  But you find it easier to call him a virtually confirmed townie, completely ignoring all said possibilities.
His lack of comment on such a large development is worrying.  He deliberately ignores my question, then gives a three word answer.  A townie would have brought it up immediately, considering the possibilities arising from my being scum, that is, Zathras being scum too.  He also ignores all the questions presented by such a belief, such as: if I am scum, and Zathras is town, why didn't I lie about Zathras, tell everyone that he didn't block me, so as to get a townie lynched?  Maybe he can think up a good answer to that question.  But, the point remains that he didn't bring any of this up earlier, despite it being critical to town success.  Only scum would want to sweep something like this under the carpet.
You're scum, Leafsnail.  This slip shall be your end.

Ottofar Case:  He still looks pretty scummy to me, the issue being, his town game is just as scummy as scum game.  I can't get a proper read on him.

Thoughts on Jim:  I'll keep this short, since I find Leafsnail scum and Jim scum to be mutually exclusive.  Jim had me suspicious because of his eagerness to jump on Zathras, as if he had some sort of communication with JTF.  (This has already been brought up by Leafsnail.)  Another reason was I was starting to get the feeling Jim was focusing on Leafsnail too much.  But I don't think both he and Leafsnail are scum.  I'll be paying close attention to him nevertheless.

Thoughts on JTF:  Now that I've had a proper look at his posts, I don't really think he's that scummy anymore.  He's actually been making good points.  He hasn't been pushing particularly strongly.  This may just be his playstyle.  I'll be watching him to get a better read.

Webadict:  LOOK I PUT CAPS LOCK ON SO YOU WOULD GET IN HERE SO PLEASE DO K BYE.

Argembarger:  I think you don't really know how to play yet, but JTF is right, you've been awfully active-lurky.  Step up your game.

Mod:  When did MBP respond to your prod?  He still hasn't posted and I'm getting sick of it.  It may be time for a forced replace/modkill.

[Leafsnail]

No you didn't.  You avoided it until someone other that I pointed it out.  And I can see why.  Whichever way you answer, you would put yourself in trouble.  If you suddenly didn't find me scum, then you would be accused of giving up way too quickly, and waffling.  Or so you would think.  I personally could see a townie not finding me scum after that, but maybe others' opinions would differ.  And if you still find me scum, as you have said you do, you open a new can of worms.

Speaking of that, do you still think I'm scum after what happened last night with Zathras, Leafsnail?

Well, you gave out sensitive role information to someone you thought was scum (and now to the town).  Perfectly logical, right?

And I'm not claiming you're the exterminator, because the exterminator has a mind shield.

This is my implication (which was in answer to the initial question).  I probably should've put "Yes, I think you're scum" in the middle, but whatever.

So, I'm scum, eh?  Then there's a good possibility of Zathras being scum too.  However, you said of him:

And I'll interject on the behalf of a virtually confirmed townie whenever I like, thank you.

Lies.  He's not at all a virtually confirmed townie if I'm scum.  We could very easily be scumbuddies.  Yet you don't even mention this possibility at all.
In fact, if I'm scum, then a whole a shit ton of possibilities arise around Zathras.  But you find it easier to call him a virtually confirmed townie, completely ignoring all said possibilities.

There's no logic in that train of thought at all.

His being virtually confirmed has nothing to do with your alignment at all.  The reason he's almost certainly not a doppelganger is that that would mean he got one of his buddies lynched and rendered his role (one of the best roles for dopps) useless for the entire game.  The reason he's almost certainly not an alien is because an alien block is one shot, and so claiming a block on Pandarsenic would be, at best, delayed suicide.

Notice that your alignment doesn't affect either of these.  And the fact that you spin hypotheticals about the two of you being scum makes me more sure you're scum and he isn't.

His lack of comment on such a large development is worrying.  He deliberately ignores my question, then gives a three word answer.  A townie would have brought it up immediately, considering the possibilities arising from my being scum, that is, Zathras being scum too.  He also ignores all the questions presented by such a belief, such as: if I am scum, and Zathras is town, why didn't I lie about Zathras, tell everyone that he didn't block me, so as to get a townie lynched?  Maybe he can think up a good answer to that question.  But, the point remains that he didn't bring any of this up earlier, despite it being critical to town success.  Only scum would want to sweep something like this under the carpet.

I did answer it immediately, just without the explicit bit you wanted.  So I added to explicit bit you wanted.  Look above for why the Zathras bit of your argument is bullshit.

You're scum, Leafsnail.  This slip shall be your end.

This entire thing is quite funny, actually.

Your main problem seems to be that you think I ignored your question.  Ok, fair enough - you should've voted me to get an answer (maybe calling me scum in the process).  But you don't.  In fact, you don't vote me until it's absolutely clear I think you're scum.  THEN you get annoyed about me missing it, THEN you make a complete U-turn on everything and start voting me again.

In other words, this is one of the most blatant OMGUSs you can possibly do.  Somehow, I think that if I said "No, I don't think you're scum" you wouldn't have this reaction.

Thoughts on Jim:  I'll keep this short, since I find Leafsnail scum and Jim scum to be mutually exclusive.  Jim had me suspicious because of his eagerness to jump on Zathras, as if he had some sort of communication with JTF.  (This has already been brought up by Leafsnail.)  Another reason was I was starting to get the feeling Jim was focusing on Leafsnail too much.  But I don't think both he and Leafsnail are scum.  I'll be paying close attention to him nevertheless.

Thoughts on JTF:  Now that I've had a proper look at his posts, I don't really think he's that scummy anymore.  He's actually been making good points.  He hasn't been pushing particularly strongly.  This may just be his playstyle.  I'll be watching him to get a better read.[/quote]
Hey, being called scum seems to have inverted two of your main suspicions.  Interesting.  I wonder why.

[Mephansteras]

Mod:  When did MBP respond to your prod?  He still hasn't posted and I'm getting sick of it.  It may be time for a forced replace/modkill.

It's been a bit, but with the holiday weekend I'm being a bit more lax. If he doesn't post Monday I'll do a forced replace.

[Argembarger]

So, I'm scum, eh?  Then there's a good possibility of Zathras being scum too.  However, you said of him:

And I'll interject on the behalf of a virtually confirmed townie whenever I like, thank you.

Lies.  He's not at all a virtually confirmed townie if I'm scum.  We could very easily be scumbuddies.  Yet you don't even mention this possibility at all.
In fact, if I'm scum, then a whole a shit ton of possibilities arise around Zathras.  But you find it easier to call him a virtually confirmed townie, completely ignoring all said possibilities.

There's no logic in that train of thought at all.

His being virtually confirmed has nothing to do with your alignment at all.  The reason he's almost certainly not a doppelganger is that that would mean he got one of his buddies lynched and rendered his role (one of the best roles for dopps) useless for the entire game.  The reason he's almost certainly not an alien is because an alien block is one shot, and so claiming a block on Pandarsenic would be, at best, delayed suicide.

Notice that your alignment doesn't affect either of these.  And the fact that you spin hypotheticals about the two of you being scum makes me more sure you're scum and he isn't.

I'm... gonna have to agree with Leafsnail here. It doesn't make any sense for a townie to come out and start going "I could be scum! And if I'm scum, he's scum too! We're scum together, or something! Or maybe not, who knows!?"

To me, that just looks like you're resigning yourself to being found out as scum, and wanting to throw out some WIFOM and drag someone else down with you. I'm not as sure of your alignment as Leafsnail is, though. But, being indignant about him not thinking someone else is scum when he thinks you are scum is kind of strange.

You're scum, Leafsnail.  This slip shall be your end.

This entire thing is quite funny, actually.

Your main problem seems to be that you think I ignored your question.  Ok, fair enough - you should've voted me to get an answer (maybe calling me scum in the process).  But you don't.  In fact, you don't vote me until it's absolutely clear I think you're scum.  THEN you get annoyed about me missing it, THEN you make a complete U-turn on everything and start voting me again.

In other words, this is one of the most blatant OMGUSs you can possibly do.  Somehow, I think that if I said "No, I don't think you're scum" you wouldn't have this reaction.

This is making a surprising amount of sense to me.

But, OK.

Here are my thoughts on the situation.

Jim
-Aggressive as hell. But he's been getting so many effective results. I'm almost certain he's town.

Leafsnail
-Started attacking Kamina on Nov. 10
-Personally, until the points he just made, I basically figured he was tunneling Kamina for some reason. Yeah, I think he makes good points, but the pressure he was laying on Kamina looked almost like torture. If you pressure someone that much for that long, they're eventually going to crack and plead guilty, whether they are or not. I mean, Kamina could very well be scum. But if he is, Leafsnail has gogdamn SUPERPOWERS for figuring it out so fast. Like a laser-guided psychic superman.



Wait a second, hold the presses.
JanusTwoFace
Diving back through the thread history was very refreshing. How in the bloody hell did you get off this easily so far? You kill Org, for a stupid reason. You claim doing it. There were a couple of complaints about it, but I honestly think you came out with your Mad Scientist claim during the Zathras debacle deliberately, to hide under the cover of all that. All you gave us was "I killed Org because he's useless, what a shame he was actually town." Really? That's it? You did "the right thing" by blatantly killing a Townie as soon as possible with your one-shot item that can actually make a massive difference? Not even an apology? Seriously? How is this justifiable, honestly?

Like, let's say for a second, that Org is the worst, most useless Mafia player alive. The game has just started. What possible advantage can there be to wasting your one-shot kill on Org instead of saving it for when multiple confirmed scum are about? Or, like, the exterminator, or something.

Now let's bring real-life Org back into the picture. Is your hatred of Org really this great? He must die before Day 2?

Your offer to be a Psychic Warden target was also useless, as, according to the rules,

All Mad Scientists have access to the Mind Shield.

As in, you would be perfectly capable of fulfilling all your doppelganger functions, in spite of being targeted by Zath. Confirming that your mind shield blocked a block would help nobody. It may have confirmed Zathras, and it may have confirmed that you were, indeed, a mad scientist, but if anything, it's a gambit to make yourself look more townish for no real concrete reason. Or, a chance to lie about it to get someone else lynched AND simultaneously avert the town's attention away from you.

I'm really glad you don't have another bot because you are scum. Org was a convenient target for your scumbot, because I'm sure on some level, other people agree with you about him. You basically confess to it at a time when everyone is concerned with other matters, and then somehow play it off like you're some kind of savior of the town?

Again, your assumption that Town Org is more harmful to the town than, say, ANY ACTUAL SCUM AT ALL is astounding.

The only defense I've managed to find you using for your action is "What, ha, you suspect me just for killing Org? You can't do that, you need reasons." This is not a defense. Attacking you for killing Org is perfectly legitimate, as that is a MAJOR, SERIOUS EVENT THAT HAPPENED.

[Jim Groovester]

Your offer to be a Psychic Warden target was also useless, as, according to the rules,

All Mad Scientists have access to the Mind Shield.

Slow the hell down.

Mad Scientists do not automatically get a Mind Shield. It is an option always available to them, but they would have to take it in lieu of their other tech.

Jim
-Aggressive as hell. But he's been getting so many effective results. I'm almost certain he's town.

If you think my results are effective, then why don't you share my suspicions? This doesn't add up.

You're buddying me. Now that I have cause to look over your posts, I don't generally find them to be exceptionally stellar. Lots of weak pokes, lurker prodding, general lack of strong suspicions. Additionally, I don't like it when people assume the moral high ground in Mafia games. It gives them a position to attack people, but it does absolutely nothing in helping find scum. Thus, scum like to do it.

*sniff*

I'm thinking you might be scum, Argembarger. Why are you buddying me, and why didn't you bring up this JTF stuff earlier, like when you read it? People have had the exact same problems that you do now, and they brought it up with him, so why all of a sudden do you have a problem with it? If you were going to have a problem with it for moral considerations or whatever it is you suspect him for this would've occurred to you a lot earlier.

[Argembarger]

Your offer to be a Psychic Warden target was also useless, as, according to the rules,

All Mad Scientists have access to the Mind Shield.

Slow the hell down.

Mad Scientists do not automatically get a Mind Shield. It is an option always available to them, but they would have to take it in lieu of their other tech.

Jim
-Aggressive as hell. But he's been getting so many effective results. I'm almost certain he's town.

If you think my results are effective, then why don't you share my suspicions? This doesn't add up.

You're buddying me. Now that I have cause to look over your posts, I don't generally find them to be exceptionally stellar. Lots of weak pokes, lurker prodding, general lack of strong suspicions. Additionally, I don't like it when people assume the moral high ground in Mafia games. It gives them a position to attack people, but it does absolutely nothing in helping find scum. Thus, scum like to do it.

*sniff*

I'm thinking you might be scum, Argembarger. Why are you buddying me,

Calm down. Just because somebody says you're acting like town doesn't mean they're buddying you.

and why didn't you bring up this JTF stuff earlier, like when you read it?

I didn't think anything of it at the time. It slipped past me during the whole Zathras-is-an-alien-or-maybe-he-isn't affair, and rereading it now brought it to my attention. I don't think the time difference makes my points any less valid.

People have had the exact same problems that you do now, and they brought it up with him, so why all of a sudden do you have a problem with it?

Yes, they brought it up with him, and I found his defense to be... well, nothing at all, actually. Deflection, if anything. My problem is that everyone just seems to have gone "Oh, you mean we can't attack you for killing town? ok then" and walked away.

If you were going to have a problem with it for moral considerations or whatever it is you suspect him for this would've occurred to you a lot earlier.

"moral problems"? I don't have moral problems, just practical ones. Why would a town member waste their one shot kill on someone just because they don't like their playstyle? That doesn't do anything but hurt town, unless the target of the kill turns out to be scum. Org didn't turn out to be scum. Killing him without having legitimate suspicions was a horrible idea and Janus is either scum or horrible town. Without further explanation from him, perhaps some links to posts revealing why he thought Org was legitimately scum instead of just annoying to him, I'm going with scum.

[webadict]

Hey, guys. The combination of Thanksgiving and no internet has led me to not posting. I have looked over the thread, and I'll post later today with something more, but I have one question for Zathras:

If you wanted to stop scums, why did you bother to tell Kamina that you were blocking him? That's stupid! That means if Kamina is scum, you've turned a 33% chance of blocking scum into 0%. Are you really trying to block scum, or just cover your own hide?

[Toaster]

Kamina:  Your line of attack is too heavy in WIFOM for my tastes.  The blanket answer to "Why would I do this as scum" is "So you could say you wouldn't do that as scum."  You wouldn't want to force a mislynch on Zath as that would almost certainly turn in to a lynch of you the next day.  You could help cement his claim today (giving you town cred) and then kill him off tonight.

Argembarger:  The traditional uses of a scum assassin bot is to use it right at LYLO to turn it into a scum win- the town usually uses it early before they get killed.  It's not a vindication of his alignment, but it does knock him down on the suspicion list a bit, at least.

[Jim Groovester]

Calm down. Just because somebody says you're acting like town doesn't mean they're buddying you.

I love it when I get quoted as a defense against myself. Obviously I can't argue with myse

Oh wait yes I can of course I can.

I don't have an issue with you saying I'm aggressive or that I'm town, but what are these 'effective results' you're talking about? You can't just drop that there without qualification.

Yes, they brought it up with him, and I found his defense to be... well, nothing at all, actually. Deflection, if anything. My problem is that everyone just seems to have gone "Oh, you mean we can't attack you for killing town? ok then" and walked away.

People kill townies all the time. It's not that big of a deal.

"moral problems"? I don't have moral problems, just practical ones. Why would a town member waste their one shot kill on someone just because they don't like their playstyle? That doesn't do anything but hurt town, unless the target of the kill turns out to be scum. Org didn't turn out to be scum. Killing him without having legitimate suspicions was a horrible idea and Janus is either scum or horrible town. Without further explanation from him, perhaps some links to posts revealing why he thought Org was legitimately scum instead of just annoying to him, I'm going with scum.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh having Org alive is not exactly helpful to the town either. JTF saved everybody the trouble (or the scapegoat) of lynching Org.

Saving your one shot kill until you're sure that somebody is scum is a bad move, because you might die in the night and not get a chance to use it. Better to use it sooner rather than later.

And another thing: You're condemning the action for how it turned out, instead of for what JTF knew and thought at the time he did it, which is the correct way to determine whether an action is scummy or not.

[Jim Groovester]

Something I forgot to bring up:

I believe there is currently a three way tie between Ottofar, JTF, and Leafsnail. We need to figure out a way to resolve this.

By lynching Leafsnail.