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[Tsarwash]

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the UK who thinks it's superior to everywhere else.

Well I think our spelling is superior to everyone elses, at least.

And our alchohol is the best in the world. Apart from wine of course.

[Leafsnail]

How did National Socialism even stem from socialism?
It has nothing to do with it. The 'Socialism' was thrown in to get the workers, nothing more.

As evidence: when founded, it didn't have the word "socialism" (or sozialistiche) in the title.  It was just the "German workers party".

[Nikov]

Yup that's why, in my head, there is "national socialism" a system based on he value of common work against the exterior enemy, who is an antagonist of social liberalism, communism and other form of socialism.

That Phmcw and I are agreeing on something makes it true by sheer Bizarro Power.

Also Tsarwash, I am far too partial to Sailor Jerry Spiced Navy Rum to agree with you there.

On a serious matter, I know I joke a lot by tossing out jabs that people are pinko commies, but I intend it to be lighthearted Colbert-style nonsense. I find a lack of comedic precedent and cannot help but think DJ is being serious.

DJ, if you're accusing me of being a closet nazi in sincerity, kindly reaffirm your claim. Otherwise, I demand an apology.

[Il Palazzo]

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources

Spoiler: from NSDAP 25 point program: (click to show/hide)

1-8 are basically hardcore nationalist ideas, mostly concerning race, immigration and the right to be called a citizen.

9.All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22-24 are concerning army issues and press-controll

25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.
(after wikipedia)

In the light of the definition provided at the top of this post, their program seems pretty socialistic to me.

Also, mainiac, your argument about Nazis killing socialists(and/or communists)=>proof of them not being socialist is fallacious. There is nothing contradictory in having multiple socialist movements fighting for power.

[ChairmanPoo]

Worth noting that there was once a "left wing" of the nazi party which regarded itself as genuinely socialist and wanted a more egalitarian partition of wealth, albeit nationalistic, traditionalist to the point of being socially conservative, and of varying degrees of racism. Among their most famous members was once Joseph Goebbels, and the Strasser (or something like that) brothers.
Hitler opposed them, though, and repeatedly stated that the nazi party was socialistic insofar all social classes worked together to further the goals of the Nation (=the state= him), which was more in the lines of proper fascist ideology. He kept Goebbels at his side, and pretty much sidelined the rest of the "left wing nazis".

TL, DR: nazism does qualify as a "socialist" ideology, in some ways, but that label alone is not enough to define them. They were a right-wing, corporatist bunch, with some populist streaks at times, in the line of other European fascist groups. There was a more properly (somewhat) "left wing nazism" once, but it got pwned early on.

[Phmcw]

The interest of this discussion lie, in my opinion, in the fact that we are defining the accepted meaning of socialism for the thread.
In this case, socialism is so wide that anyone using the word, if he doesn't want to refer to the whole historical phenomenon, have to refine the concept. For instance, I'm in favor of social liberalism, as defined by Keynes. That make me a centrist I guess, given that it's an ideology both socialist and capitalist.

Oh and for the Nazi matter, the white supremacist in America that sometimes call themselves Nazi have probably nothing to do with socialism. (Actually it's a guess.)

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the UK who thinks it's superior to everywhere else.

Well I think our spelling is superior to everyone elses, at least.

And our alchohol is the best in the world. Apart from wine of course.

I disagree Stout is unberable. I rather have my delicious microbrew

[redacted123]

12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

I don't know how well they carried this one out. The name IG Farben springs to mind.

[Aqizzar]

Yeah, keeping in mind all the industry moguls who essentially dictated terms to the Nazi regime, I think we can all agree the only thing the Nazi platform can provide a definition of is Nazism.

[scriver]

I think this rather nonsensical discussion could come to an end if we just agree that even if Nazism was indeed partly socialist, it does not sully the slate of Socialism itself. Just like the wrongdoings of conservative dictator Pinochet does not stain Conservatism itself.

On a serious matter, I know I joke a lot by tossing out jabs that people are pinko commies, but I intend it to be lighthearted Colbert-style nonsense. I find a lack of comedic precedent and cannot help but think DJ is being serious.

I think that intentions falls flat on the basis that you are a conservative yourself, and Colbert isn't. It's like none-jews making jew jokes, or deprecation in general - it's okay when it's you making fun of yourselves, but it's not okay to make fun of the fat guy's weight.

[Nikov]

Wait. So Colbert can make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because he's a liberal, but I can't make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because I'm a conservative?

Yeah, keeping in mind all the industry moguls who essentially dictated terms to the Nazi regime...

What?!

13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

Nazi control of business retained a diminished investment profit-incentive, controlled with economic regulation concording a company’s functioning with the Reich’s national production requirements. Government financing eventually dominated private investment; in the 1933–34 biennium, the proportion of private securities issued diminished from more than 50 per cent of the total, to approximately 10 per cent in the 1935–38 quadrennium. Heavy profit taxes limited self-financing companies, and the largest companies (usually government contractors) mostly were exempted from paying taxes on profits—in practice, however, government control allowed “only the shell of private ownership” in the Third Reich economy.[49]

In 1937, Hermann Göring replaced Schacht as Minister of Economics, and introduced the Four Year Plan that would establish German self-sufficiency for war—within four years—by curtailing foreign importations; fixing wages and prices (violators merited concentration-camp internment); stock dividends were restricted to six per cent on book capital, et cetera. Strategic goals were to be achieved regardless of cost (as in Soviet economics): thus the rapid construction of synthetic-rubber factories, steel mills, automatic textile mills, et cetera. -- Wiki

[Aqizzar]

I know Wikipedia is a fantastic source for whatever point you want to make at a given time, but there are more definitive accounts of history.  The long and short of Nazi economics was neither state control of business or business control of the state, but that they essentially became one and the same.  Hitler bargained his way into parliamentary power by greasing a lot of palms with Germany's industry moguls, and once the whole thing got into high gear in war, those same tycoons were interchangeable with the military provisioning command, and the state provided them with slave labor among every other advantage.

But hey, don't let me stop you from taking the Nazis at their word, according to their own propaganda bills prior to taking significant power, so you can keep tarring modern social-welfare proponents as neo-Nazis.

Wait. So Colbert can make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because he's a liberal, but I can't make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because I'm a conservative?

This would carry more weight if you pointed to one time you made fun of a conservative by name.

[scriver]

Wait. So Colbert can make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because he's a liberal, but I can't make fun of conservatives making fun of liberals because I'm a conservative?

So you're making fun of conservatives now? I didn't notice.

Though, I get your point.

[Impending Doom]

Oh and for the Nazi matter, the white supremacist in America that sometimes call themselves Nazi have probably nothing to do with socialism. (Actually it's a guess.)

The majority of the White Supremacist assfucks who associate themselves with the Nazi Party are uneducated fucktards who have never cracked open a history book in their life and, most likely, can't even read. I sincerely doubt you could even find one who knows what 'Nazi' actually stands for.

If it wasn't obvious, I have a very low opinion of white supremacists and racism in general.

[Nikov]

Thank you Scriver.

I know Wikipedia is a fantastic source for whatever point you want to make at a given time, but there are more definitive accounts of history... Hitler bargained his way into parliamentary power by greasing a lot of palms with Germany's industry moguls...

Aqizzar, I direct your attention to pages 137 and 138 of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which I had read some six years ago and have now had the pleasure to find online. You should be able to easily determine he gained parlimentary power before he gained the backing of "industry moguls" on any large scale. His party and he personally was impoverished and indebted, even owing back taxes, until 1929 itself when the first donations of a few industrialsts began to trickle in. But to assume that money "greased the palms"? Who's palms? 14 million voters?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)