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Author Topic: The rebirth of the socialist...  (Read 3797 times)

Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 11:28:18 pm »

To clarify, Retirement age is going up form 60 to 62, and retirement pension are reduced, and reduced again if you retire before 62.
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Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2010, 11:36:14 pm »

Wasn't there something like this happening in Greece a few months back?
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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2010, 11:39:07 pm »

Somewhat, greece is much more indebted than france, so they wanted to reduce spending to pay back a bit of the debt and reduce deficit. Greeks weren't so hot about it.
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mainiac

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2010, 12:33:06 am »

You believe the Nazi's were socialist because they said they were?  Interesting argument.  Did you also know that the Nazi's had no intention of invading Czechoslovakia or Poland?  Yep, they said so themselves.

The Nazi's had some very marginal socialist tendencies prior to arriving in power.  But what few socialist tendencies remained were killed buried and pissed upon by the time they were done with the night of the long knives in 1934.  Past that point, they were the most rabidly anti-socialist regime in the world without a shadow of a doubt.  They didn't just hate socialists, they actively set gangs upon them and killed them in the streets.

Furthermore the german socialist party at the time was the ONLY party in germany that ever tried to stand up to Hitler.  When Hitler called for the enabling act, the socialist members of the reichstag risked their lives to even make it to the building past a crowd of brownshirt thugs.  Not a single MP who wasn't a socialist voted against the enabling act and not a single socialist voted for it.  Every step along the way of Hitlers rise, the socialists opposed him and for their troubles, a large number of them died in concentration camps.

When people say that the Nazi's were socialists, they aren't just horribly, horribly distorting history. They are pissing on the memory of brave men and women who showed heroism and integrity in one of the bleakest situations imaginable.

In other words FUCK NO THE NAZI'S WERE NOT SOCIALISTS.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2010, 12:35:54 am »

What do red flags stand for?

Also for the country that developed the phalanx, I am disappointed that the people with shields forgot their sticks and the people with sticks have them far too short and forgot their shields.
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mainiac

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2010, 01:00:09 am »

That, and they are a bit too used to the heaven-state. I'm for sociaklisme, since i think its better for the governement to use its power and the educated people to help the masses, but France is living in the past. Retiring at 60 was all fine and good when they were a huge world power and they had their empire to help. Now, not so much.

I must have missed the lessons in history class where they taught us how dirt farming villages in Algeria or jungle plantations in Madagascar were able to give the French the money to fund their social welfare programs.  Hell, I must have missed the lessons in history class where they taught us how the French possessions were even able to cover the costs of empire.

Jesus Christ, has anyone in this thread ever even heard of history?  See, it's the really amazing thing.  People wrote about a bunch of stuff that happened in the past.  You read what they wrote, and then you can know things.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Phmcw

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2010, 01:37:40 am »

mainiac : well, I somehow disagree with you on your first post, but fully agree with you on the second.
I disagree because, well national socialism is a pretty good term to speak of that kind of party, if you accept a very wide definition of "socialism", like in Europe.
Now, you see, I've always had a problem with the way "socialism" is used in America : we have a socialist party, the first party actually, and let's say it's pretty far from collectivism.

Socialism, right now, has been used to designate a lot of different ideology, ranging from hard left to hard right, and we have to acknowledge this fact.

The second point is kind of evident. And , food for thought, explain how working longer will do any good if here is no job for the youth anyway.
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mainiac

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2010, 02:53:56 am »

Okay, so as long as we make the word meaningless, it applies?  What if I said that I thought the word "Democracy" should be used to describe North Korea.  It's got "democratic" right in the name!

The Nazi's had "socialist" in their name for one reason and one reason alone: it made them sound like they cared about the little guy.  But saying that you are a socialist does not make you one.

I repeat myself in saying that it is downright offensive to call the Nazis socialist.  People died because they cared about the socialist movement.  They cared about their fellow man and a fair society and were willing to die to protect a free society.  And this is how do you honor their memory?  You associate them with the very same psychotic thugs and murders that they were against?

It's like if you called Nazism a branch of Judaism.

Read this and ask yourself what the german socialists would have thought of the notion that the nazi's were socialists: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=1497
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 03:21:59 am by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Leafsnail

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2010, 05:24:09 am »

Well, the French like striking.  A lot.  This is nothing new, really.

They often do so for pretty petty reasons, but that's how they secure some of the best working conditions in the world, I guess.
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Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2010, 05:24:32 am »

I've drank just enough to say this but not enough to realize I shouldn't, and yet, enough to say to hell with it; the Nazi's were socialist. The concept of the Nazi party was that the warrior ethos of soldiers in the trenches under the absolute leadership of a Fuhrer could form the basis of a functional government. The idea was that devotion to a leader suffering the same hardships as you, socially or intellectually your superior but physically enduring the pain that made you equals, is not at all incompatible with the idea of a political elite with heartfelt empathy for the downtrodden. In fact its an even purer form. In the muck and metal of a factory your shift foreman might be a card-carrying union member and a fellow socialist for your labor rights, but together you face a foe no worse than you care to bring upon yourself, voluntarily alligned to the union that commands no more obligation than a social club. But in the pure hell of white-hot shell splinters and rat-infested trenches, picket lines and tear gas become child's play. I recall Guy Sajer's, an Alsatian in the Gross Deutchland, recording only one passage regarding national socialism in his memoirs describing in how the national socialist spirit was alive and well as they distributed meat and spirits siezed on the frozen Eastern front from German supply clerks hoarding them. Perfect fairness, cut by cut, regardless of rank or physical condition. That's a socialist notion, isn't it, when the Prussian-born nobleman captain, the chaplain, and the half-French landser all recieve an equal share? Or when Army Chief of Staff Zeitzler chose to starve himself of twenty six pounds in two weeks by adopting the diet of the encircled men at Stalingrad, was that not solidairity with the opressed?

In all of the reading I've done about the National Socialists, I've simply not found evidence they were in any way antithetical of socialism. Communists proper may have declared "workers of the world unite", but national socialists called for workers of Germany to unite for the national interest above and against that of the Comintern. Both held that the group was above the individual, a socialist notion, but the Bolsheviks thought class was the paramount divider of men, while Nazis held that race was supreme. This doomed them to conflict, although simply by having placed the group above the individual, some of, if not the worst, examples of racial or class fueled hatred occured under the aegis of a greater-good idealology.

As much as I fear fallout from saying this, I really feel it must be said; I've dissected the monster, but that does not make me Dr. Frankenstein. I trust the community will view this as open and earnest discourse and tolerate it as such, not shout me down or try to ban me for saying something I am certain is unpopular on a sensitive subject.

Lets all try and be adults in Voltaire's mindset of disagreeing with content but defending the right, shall we?

And with that, off to bed. I'll wake up and wonder why the hell I opened this can of worms, but maybe one person changes their mind about things. And please, don't pretend speaking in less than damning terms about things Germans did from 1928 to 1945 is some endorsement of Adolf Hitler's deranged antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Heh, repeating myself now. I guess it doesn't hurt to wear two pairs of gloves when shoveling shit.
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Tsarwash

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2010, 05:27:37 am »

Why are you obsessed with the Nazis ? Everyone knows they were basically socialists in name only. This thread is about socialism not the friggin Nazi's. I know this is the internet, but it must be possible to discuss socialism without people constantly referring to the damn Nazis.

Edit for grammar.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 05:37:18 am by Tsarwash »
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Dasleah

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2010, 05:28:17 am »

nazis can't be socialist because socialist starts with an s and not a z

it's basic word science, people
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Leafsnail

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 05:56:02 am »

I've drank just enough to say this but not enough to realize I shouldn't, and yet, enough to say to hell with it; the Nazi's were socialist. The concept of the Nazi party was that the warrior ethos of soldiers in the trenches under the absolute leadership of a Fuhrer could form the basis of a functional government. The idea was that devotion to a leader suffering the same hardships as you, socially or intellectually your superior but physically enduring the pain that made you equals, is not at all incompatible with the idea of a political elite with heartfelt empathy for the downtrodden. In fact its an even purer form. In the muck and metal of a factory your shift foreman might be a card-carrying union member and a fellow socialist for your labor rights, but together you face a foe no worse than you care to bring upon yourself, voluntarily alligned to the union that commands no more obligation than a social club. But in the pure hell of white-hot shell splinters and rat-infested trenches, picket lines and tear gas become child's play. I recall Guy Sajer's, an Alsatian in the Gross Deutchland, recording only one passage regarding national socialism in his memoirs describing in how the national socialist spirit was alive and well as they distributed meat and spirits siezed on the frozen Eastern front from German supply clerks hoarding them. Perfect fairness, cut by cut, regardless of rank or physical condition. That's a socialist notion, isn't it, when the Prussian-born nobleman captain, the chaplain, and the half-French landser all recieve an equal share? Or when Army Chief of Staff Zeitzler chose to starve himself of twenty six pounds in two weeks by adopting the diet of the encircled men at Stalingrad, was that not solidairity with the opressed?
Solidarity with your troops in difficult times =/= socialism.  And the Nazis were extremely anti-trade unionist, so I'm not sure what all those comments about picketing are for.

In all of the reading I've done about the National Socialists, I've simply not found
evidence they were in any way antithetical of socialism.
...What?  Heck, one of their justifications for going after Jews was that they were "communist leaders".  And there's the fact that the actual German socialist party resisted them every step of the way, that they put them to death and so on.  And that the Nazi party's supporters regularly got into brawls with socialists and communists.
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Phmcw

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 06:15:00 am »

Yup that's why, in my head, there is "national socialism" a system based on he value of common work against the exterior enemy, who is an antagonist of social liberalism, communism and other form of socialism. Actually, the so called USSR has taken a lot of these traits, particularly the bit about their culture/race being superior to those of everyone else. National socialist idea hurt socialism a lot.

Likewise Social liberalism is both socialist and capitalist. It can qualify as a capitalist ideology, but is opposed to ultra liberalism and libertarianism.

And   then there is the poeple who claim to adhere to these ideology.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 06:24:24 am »

Clearly they were trying too hard to make it seem like they weren't communists! It's obvious their killing the poor and sick for being "a drain on public resources" was just a ruse to conceal their desire to... not kill them for being "a drain on public resources", and clearly they wanted industry to be run by the workers so they would get fair wages, as evidenced by their... giving the factory owners plentiful slave labor... And clearly the whole "slaughtering communists" part was just to hide that they were conspiring with them in order to... uh... put them in positions of power?

Hmm... That doesn't really fit together at all... :-\
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