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Author Topic: The rebirth of the socialist...  (Read 3756 times)

Phmcw

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The rebirth of the socialist...
« on: October 26, 2010, 04:22:45 pm »

thread.

I like the idea of a thread about socialism, especially given what has been written in the last one.
For a thread about misconceptions, it has two pretty huge ones.

First is : socialism isn't compatible with capitalism.
It's a weird belief, that I, personally, attribute to the habit of having nice, clean definitions.
Socialism is a word used by thousands of political movement to refer to themselves, over more than once century.
Thinking that it refer to one unified theory is naive beyond words. The French or Belgian socialist party isn't willing to disband private ownership, or to abolish capitalism.
Of course, the radicalization of the right in the last years play a important part here : a right wing extremist consider that capitalism have to be left alone completely, thus that any meddling in the economy the end of capitalism. But for him even Keynesian economics is anti capitalist, and that's just nonsense.

Second, that nazi weren't socialist : Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei : national socialist Germans worker's party. Yup, they said they were socialist (but were against communism, which is what socialism seems to refer to in America these days.). Of course, that doesn't make socialism a branch of Nazism.

Of what could be discussed in this thread : of course these two statement and any idea you might have over socialism, whatever side are you on.
I'll ask for no derail. If such a thing happen, I'll lock the thread, write a summary of what has been said, and start a new one.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 04:40:03 pm by Phmcw »
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Virex

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2010, 04:28:32 pm »

I don't know if fascism based ideologies are easily combined with socialist ideologies, since socialism is about caring for everyone while fascisms' base concept is more akin to "power to the strongest" (Remember that a name doesn't say much or else East Germany would've been a shining example of democracy...)
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Phmcw

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 04:35:56 pm »

Sadly, a lot of party are not what they say. But in this case, they did not completely lie : the Nazi invested a lot in the infrastructure and followed Keynesian economics. They were a party with strong roots in the laboring class, and has been quite efficient at getting them out of misery. Ironically, has hey been a bit more evil and corrupt, they would not have had the support they needed to do such damage in Europe.
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Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2010, 04:39:01 pm »

Edit: Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:17:31 pm by Nikov »
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

smigenboger

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 05:59:14 pm »

Sadly, a lot of party are not what they say. But in this case, they did not completely lie : the Nazi invested a lot in the infrastructure and followed Keynesian economics. They were a party with strong roots in the laboring class, and has been quite efficient at getting them out of misery. Ironically, has hey been a bit more evil and corrupt, they would not have had the support they needed to do such damage in Europe.
Which leads to the big 'what if' of:
How well their system would have worked granted they didn't try all that silly purging of the impure and those hostile takeovers.
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Tsarwash

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 06:13:21 pm »

Shall we keep the Nazi's out of this as they were clearly nothing to do with socialism ?
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Dasleah

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 09:05:30 pm »

Shall we keep the Nazi's out of this as they were clearly nothing to do with socialism ?

You know what else tried to keep the Nazis out?

France.

Hitler went to France once.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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The Roguelike Development Megathread.

As well, all the posts i've seen you make are flame posts, barely if at all constructive.

Eugenitor

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 09:14:20 pm »

Reminds me what happened when I tried Hearts of Iron 2 for myself and played as France.

I don't like the Nazis but the Nazis like me :(
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Realmfighter

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 09:15:59 pm »

I keep trying to articulate my Nihilistic views, but I just realized that they are basically a "Get out of debates because i don't give a shit" card.
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Bauglir

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2010, 09:17:30 pm »

I keep trying to articulate my Nihilistic views, but I just realized that they are basically a "Get out of debates because i don't give a shit" card.

There are worse cards to have, to be fair. For instance, "Get shits because I'm out of debate" card, which I always thought was a rather poor addition to the set, since it doesn't seem to make any sense.
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nbonaparte

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 09:19:33 pm »

I keep trying to articulate my Nihilistic views, but I just realized that they are basically a "Get out of debates because i don't give a shit" card.
I take a similar view. I have no trouble debating details on an overarching idea we agree on, but axiomatic differences are futile to debate.
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Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 11:04:45 pm »

So what's with France right now anyway?
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

Phmcw

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 11:21:01 pm »

They angry at their president, and thus are rioting.
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Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Nikov

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2010, 11:24:30 pm »

Why are they angry at their president?
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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: The rebirth of the socialist...
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2010, 11:27:04 pm »

That, and they are a bit too used to the heaven-state. I'm for sociaklisme, since i think its better for the governement to use its power and the educated people to help the masses, but France is living in the past. Retiring at 60 was all fine and good when they were a huge world power and they had their empire to help. Now, not so much.

Really, it's nothing special. The government see they cant stay like that or else they'll ruin the country in a few decade at most, while worker are understandably being pissed since they will get reduced retirmeent prestation, and their older family/friends had it better than them.
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