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Author Topic: The MMO Of My Dreams  (Read 4382 times)

sonerohi

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2010, 05:20:22 pm »

Yah, the test server is pretty swick. The only un-fun part is the lack of community on it, which will obviously be remedied when it gets pushed as the standard client.
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Kusgnos

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2010, 10:09:57 pm »

Hmmm. Though it's probably not what you're looking for, FiranMUX satisfies a lot of these requirements.

1. Combat in FiranMUX is timer based, so when you wield a weapon and attack, there's some time depending on your attributes before the game makes a roll for you versus your opponent and calculates out damage location and damage type. There isn't any grinding, because you don't level by using your skills codedly; you 'level' skills by spending XP, which you get from RPing with others (every week, you vote for 5 people who you had the best scenes with, and that gets turned into XP for that person), and you level attributes very rarely, through something called birthday bonuses that you have to justify based on what you've done in the past year. Instead of an HP meter, there's a damage meter, and every time you get hit you roll shock dice to see if you go unconscious, and death dice to see if you die from the hit. Dice difficulties get harder as you get more damage, so naturally it's nearly impossible to go unconscious or die with a small bruise, but very likely to die if you're already seriously injured and wounded everywhere. It doesn't have a bleeding system yet, though, so that's a downside. But you can get permanent injuries by getting past a certain injury threshold, which reduces one of your attributes. When you fight, you can also form groups and fight in formations, and generally whenever people go out hunting for dangerous animals, they always bring more than one person, in case you get knocked out and mauled by an animal. Death is permanent. Wars and conflicts and murders go the same way.

2. When you die, it's permanent. There's no reviving or respawning, since FiranMUX is about a persistent and consistent world. After you get struck by a fatal blow, what happens is one of two things. If it's a death where your body couldn't be recovered, then you're just dead. If it's a death where your body does get recovered, the admin set you to 'Dying' status, which means you'll die in a week or so, and you get time to RP out your last scenes. Very rarely do people get saved--in these cases, it's due to intervention by gods (who are played by actual players, but they also have a limit on their power, so you don't see much intervention, as expected). Characters start being playable at age 8, and the game has a 1:3 time ratio, so one year RL is three years ingame. Once you're past 40, every birthday you also make a roll based on your attributes to see whether your health stays the same, or deteriorates. If your health ever reaches 1 and you fail a roll, you'll die of old age. There are diseases in game, and it is possible to die of contagious diseases or plagues (though those tend to be pretty rare, since they're incredibly difficult to combat). And since if you die, it's permanent, there is a very well-formed and thematic guard structure, and killing someone is an act that's taken very, very seriously. You can rarely get away with it, so it's only something someone does if they're an assassin/mercenary, and are sure that the odds are on their side.

3. The majority of the characters are not fighters. While there is a military, air force, and navy, and loads of combat in the game, a lot of the meat comes from crafting. Tailoring, tanning, armoring, farming, animal husbandry, breeding dogs, architecture, carpentry, masonry, and so forth and so on (musicians, dancers, and scribes) are all ingame and make money. Talented tailors (who are skilled OOCly at making good looking clothing descriptions) earn lots of money, especially for silk items, and armorers are in high demand for making armor and repairing armor, and people need tanners to make them their leather things, locksmiths to make locks for their doors and make keys, weaponsmiths to make blades and axes, farmers to make crops for the cooks to cook and the brewers to brew, people need carpenters to build them furniture, people want masons to make sculptures or houses, and it goes on and on. There are no minigames, but one of the reason why this works is because the game's set up and structured in a way to make huge demand for customized items. Basically, the game's world is incredibly detailed and codified, and having good looking clothing and jewelry is a way to show off how rich you are or how well-dressed you are, and people just like having a lot of stuff. A lot of demand for supply.

4. Scarcity for resources--this is the one thing that FiranMUX doesn't quite have yet. Land in FiranMUX is all owned by someone, usually, and resources are only scarce in rare cases. Lumber is freely accessible at the public chopping grounds, so trees rarely run out because they replenish every season, but animals can run out. Each plot of land has a database for what kinds of animals you can find on it, and so if you keep hunting, some animal types can disappear. This tends to happen a lot for river banks and lobsters, because lobster bisque is kind of the richest possible food, and all the nobles want it for ceremonies/birthdays/parties/marriages/dinners. There is pretty much a functioning economy in FiranMUX, where you can buy things at the market or from other people, and people own stores and there's a way to advertise and put up things in the classifieds. It also works because it's hard to be a perfect jack of all trades due to XP costs. A very good miner could mine some iron, which he sells to a smelter to get it smelt up into iron ingots, and then that miner might commission an armorer to make an armor set for his brother, and now the armorer's gained money that he'll use for something else. Also, there's another currency in game called ERP, which is 'energy reserve points', and they represent labor--you'll use these up whenever you make things. I'll get into that a bit later.

5. Exploration. FiranMUX has a fixed area, but it's one of the largest of all MUXes. Lots of buildings with rooms inside, and there are also secret rooms. Even non-secret rooms can be interesting...a lot of neat things are out in the wilderness and inside the city walls, and also in the Old City (kind of a slum place). Tunnels, deserted ships, ruins, underground temples, huge trees, and caves and all sorts of things. Having the espionage skill allows you to use the search command, where you'll spend some energy to find hidden entrances in your location. There's a lot to explore, and furthermore, whenever any unique, wiz-run events come around like War Season, or any unique TPs (short for tinyplot), there's always new stuff going on and stories behind them. A lot of exploring, and a lot of learning. Some people have been on the game for years and still find new things.

6. You have to interact if you ever want to have new stuff. Any kind of finished good goes through a lot of processes to make it what it is. You have some blueberry wine? That wine was brewed by a brewer. The blueberries came from a farmer. The farmer rented land from a noble. This kind of progression is pretty much everywhere in game. A silk palla, for example, would have had to come from a tailor who could design it, and the silk came from a weaver who wove silk into cloth, and that silk came from a Clan's imports from another nation. And there's also quality levels for things. If you have a great cook who made spec (spectacular, referring to the dice success) cakes, then eating them will give you a different description. Medicines and bandages: you need a herbologist to find those herbs and make medicines, and a healer is the one who applies them to you. Better quality medicines and bandages heal you a bit more. In summary, the creation process for items is one that promotes interaction and roleplay. And yes, there often is a lot of sentimental feeling for a personal item. Some characters have armor that's been passed down through generations, and often times you'll see that someone owns some gold medals or trophies or sculptures that were presented to them after they won a contest, or a battle royale or a pentathlon. Some items are owned by royalty, and other items are historical. Nearly all of these items come from player hands.

7. Health - FiranMUX doesn't quite have what you search for here. You don't need to keep fed to stay alive. Instead, the game has something called EP, which are energy points. You need these to buy from the market, to make items, and to code-work, and fighting uses up a bit of EP for each action. Whenever you sleep, a portion of your EP goes to your ERP, so if you want to be able to do most things, you will need to keep your energy up. So eating is required, but not excessive--most games that require you to eat to stay alive either will result in you dying if you don't have the time to log in, or will have you mysteriously perfect and full when you log in, which is a little immersive-breaking, depending on the kind of game. This system is nice, in my opinion, since if you don't play the game often you won't be punished for not eating, but if you play the game then you'll need to eat, but it's not unreasonable. Hydration is in the form of alcohol--thematically people don't drink water because the water might be foul or tainted.

8. FiranMUX is set in a sort of Greco-Roman alternate world. There's no magic whatsoever (though there are artifacts that do things that come from gods), though there are some beasts that are fantastical like griffons, and one of the races ingame is apparently a 'bad guy' culture that misogynizes women and does terrible shit to their enemies (amusingly enough, the playable culture in the game also misogynizes women a good deal of time, and also discriminates a lot thematically). It's done in an interesting way, though, that'll take some getting used to for people who don't play these kinds of roleplaying games. FiranMUX is pretty damn different from other MUXes, so people tell me. A huge part of the game is built on code, so even though it's an RP game it feels a lot like a computer RPG at times, and though you can create your own characters, it's not nearly as deep as if you chose a character from the roster system. That character comes with a list of family, relationships, skills, attributes, and basically comes into existence as part of the world already. Some characters are more vital to the game's overarching plot than others, so you need to send in an application for them sometimes. It's extremely different from most games, but this is what makes it juicy.

A lot of stories make their way through this game. It has a very rich history, and I can say I've had a lot of fun and nerve-wracking times in FiranMUX, though I try not to let it suck up my time too much. The strange thing is, it's not that hard to get into if you know how to type. I never played any roleplaying-style game before FiranMUX, and I was terrible the first week, but I picked it up quickly and now it's insanely addicting sometimes. You can be a part of the guard, or the army. Each Clan has its own prejudices and styles, and there's a lot of conflict between some, and brawling is legal, so if you're a fighter type you can get in a lot of that stuff. There's gladiator games sometimes, and you can choose to play as a noble, a middle class citizen, or a commoner, or even a criminal or a thug. Crime is complex, but there's also a lot of things in it to make sure it isn't overpowered (and it isn't), so when you do pull off a good crime it feels very satisfying and adrenaline-rushy. Most people in the game are very good about keeping things IC (pretty much everyone keeps it IC), but you're allowed to talk OOC on channels as long as you don't divulge stuff, so forth and so on. IC actions = IC consequences. It's probably the biggest rule to learn when you first play the game, and after that it's a smooth ride.

Man, I can't believe I typed so much on it. I actually got introduced to it via the Bay12 thread on it, so it's kind of funny seeing me write so much about it now. Hope this is interesting. 
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Neonivek

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2010, 10:13:43 pm »

Permadeath is always something that sounds better in theory then it does in action.

It makes a game stagnate in an entirely different way.
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Grakelin

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2010, 12:44:38 am »

Scarcity of resources would also be incredibly difficult to put in place without alienating people with responsibilities who can't be online every single time there are new resources available.
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Sappho

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2010, 04:36:53 am »

Wow, lots to respond to.

@Rakonas - I have tried Puzzle Pirates, and I think the minigames thing works very well.  However, the world is quite small and, most important for me, there is no building.  I'm looking for the kind of game where I can set up a homestead somewhere or build a giant maze as I'm trying to do in Hazordhu.

@Andir - I agree with the idea of hiring NPCs to watch your stuff while you're away.  Like everything, they shouldn't be 100% foul-proof, but they should help a lot.

@Sergius - I like a lot of your points.  As for permadeath, it should absolutely be an integral part of the game.  A reincarnation system of some sort, for example, where you can get bonuses to your next character (or more choices about that character) based on the last life you lived.  The longer and more successful your life was, the more options you'll have.  The ascension system in Kingdom of Loathing comes to mind.  This is also partly a justification for high specialization; this character only has a certain amount of time/points/whatever to devote to skills, and it's impossible to learn everything.  So you focus on just a couple of areas, and then in your next life you can do something completely different.  And yes, people should be able to dabble in lots of things, but it shouldn't be possible to be an absolute jack of all trades.
For exploration, I absolutely support the idea of occasional natural disasters to keep the landscape and the game world changing.  I think change would be an integral part of this game - changing your character, changing the world.  In most MMOs things stagnate in that everything there is to do is eventually done by the most hardcore players and they have nothing else to do but give newer players a hard time.  People tend to hold on to their little bit of the game world, intending to keep it forever, and any threat to that they take as a personal threat and a sign of a "bad" game (look at the way people flipped about removing totems from Hazordhu).  My game wouldn't be that way - if you want something permanent, go play something else.  This would be an ever-changing game world where there's always *something* new going on (admin-generated if need be) and personal attachment to anything other than one or two heirloom items would only hurt you in the long run. 
As for the setting, my original idea was to have a game like you describe, where technology evolves as new resources and techniques are discovered.  I ended up leaving it out of my original description because the classic argument against that is that it's too unwieldy to program such a system.  Either it would all have to be pre-programmed in before the game is even released (like A Tale In The Desert, for example), or the game would need constant additions (aside from the standard bugfixing and other updates that are part and parcel of the MMO genre).  I would be all for it if it's feasible, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if I couldn't have that.

@sonerohi - I like the idea of the player's real-life abilities being a factor in in-game skills as a general idea, but for my game I don't think it would be a good fit.  The purpose of a role-playing game is that you can do things you couldn't do in real life.  If I was restricted by my actual abilities, there would be entire sections of the game that would be closed off to me, which would be frustrating.

@Deon - I mention Faery Tale Online in my first post, at the end.  I tried it and it's the closest thing I've found to what I want, but the slowness of the game is a deal breaker for me.  I need something I can work at for a few hours each day when I have time to kill, not something I log into once or twice per day for ten minutes, assign new tasks, leave a line or two of roleplaying text, and then have nothing else to do until the next day.  Nevermind the ridiculous waiting period just to get into the game (I waited 3 real-life months for my first turn).

@Kusgnos - FiranMUX sounds interesting.  I've never heard of it, but I'll give it a try.  Thanks for all the info.

@Grakelin - The renewal of resources would be an organic thing.  One tree at a time would grow back depending on how long ago it had been planted.  I suppose new mineral resources would need to come in the form of natural disasters like volcanoes, earthquakes, and meteor strikes, but there would be enough to go around for sure.  The point of scarcity would not be that you can't get the things you're looking for unless you're lucky or there when they appear - it would be that at any given time, only a certain portion of the game world has access to particular resources.  This means there's plenty to go around, but you need to trade for it with neighbors and wandering merchants rather than just going out and mining it or whatever.  Some resources will be more valuable than others because they are harder to find, but there wouldn't be a massive shortage of wood or stone or something vital like that.  If it seems like a shortage is happening, an admin would just trigger some sort of renewal to keep things going.  Balance would have to be constantly tweaked and it would probably take a long time to get it right, but the goal would be that everything is available somewhere, you just have to be willing to pay (or travel) for it.

Phew.  I think that's all for now.  Keep the ideas coming!  Not that I'll ever be able to make this game of course, but who knows, maybe someday I can persuade someone with the resources and expertise to do it for me with the right proposal. :)

Sappho

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2010, 04:52:53 am »

Whoa, I just found this on my hard drive, written in May of 2009.  It has specific details for many aspects of an MMO I was trying to design.  I don't know how feasible most of this stuff would be to actually implement, but some of the ideas sound great and I can't believe I forgot about this.  Have a look: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1VL-UK18MIldR2y5W72OyrFxRO9n4BMwXxDznvN_1QDw

Muz

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2010, 08:19:29 am »

Faery Tale Online does everything listed in the OP.
Armageddon MUD far exceeds all of them. And so do a few others.

But they attract other problems. FTO sacrifices realism and player power for fun.. there's a huge world to explore and interact with, but it's just... boring, a sandbox, and the players don't wish to turn it into a game.

Armageddon did the scarcity of resources thing. Copper is so rare that you can expect to be killed over it. But over a few years, it started attracting the people who OOCly enjoyed the harshness, and encouraged a really harsh player base on the OOC side, who'd bully you in game.


And every RP heavy game (which comes with permadeath) is going to have a very elitist player base who have an overemotional response to dying. If you think Hazordhu is bad, imagine a proper permadeath game - the crazy OOC attacks are a common attitude there. And the more elite they are, the stronger the troll hunts become. FTO went so far as to lock their general discussion board from all discussion.
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Astral

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2010, 09:04:15 am »

Armageddon looks interesting; been looking for something else to play after HellMOO lost its intrigue. Edit: They make you go through an application process for a game? Can't see this being extremely popular.

The only downside I can see to an MMO trying to fit those things is that it isn't WoW; WoW (as much as I hate to say it) redefined the MMO genre in a way that went from somewhat nerdy to something that anyone can play, much like Facebook games. It would have a cult following, and wouldn't be mainstream because eveyone would compare it to "successful" (homogenized/boring) MMOs, rather than seeing it as unique.

"WoW [or insert game name here] does it this way, so we should too, otherwise we won't make money" is the name of the game for any MMORPG these days. It would take something truly groundbreaking to break the bad habit that has become the MMO "industry."

The fact that it wouldn't be WoW would be something to love it for, though. Guild Wars 2, if it is to be believed, will have some of these concepts; a large world, events that can't be recreated (and can be instigated by players, and hindered by inaction), as well as other things.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:53:32 am by Astral »
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Virex

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2010, 10:18:52 am »

@Grakelin - The renewal of resources would be an organic thing.  One tree at a time would grow back depending on how long ago it had been planted.  I suppose new mineral resources would need to come in the form of natural disasters like volcanoes, earthquakes, and meteor strikes, but there would be enough to go around for sure.  The point of scarcity would not be that you can't get the things you're looking for unless you're lucky or there when they appear - it would be that at any given time, only a certain portion of the game world has access to particular resources.  This means there's plenty to go around, but you need to trade for it with neighbors and wandering merchants rather than just going out and mining it or whatever.  Some resources will be more valuable than others because they are harder to find, but there wouldn't be a massive shortage of wood or stone or something vital like that.  If it seems like a shortage is happening, an admin would just trigger some sort of renewal to keep things going.  Balance would have to be constantly tweaked and it would probably take a long time to get it right, but the goal would be that everything is available somewhere, you just have to be willing to pay (or travel) for it.
That only works if travel is limited, or else people just flock the place where the meteor landed. But to balance that out, you need to make it so that staying in one place or moving slowly doesn't become a chore. I am not sure how that works, but you want a system in which traveling from one end of the game area to the other end takes maybe several days in real life yet the traveler should be entertained while traveling. On a similar note the event generation system has to be so that if you stay in one place there will always be something interesting to do, because if all you can do is farm for some time, which just involves swinging a scythe sideways, then you're going to quit quickly.
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Sergius

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2010, 10:34:05 am »

I would make resource farming either 1) an offline activity - like training in EvE Online (I mean, not forcing you to actually BE offline, but to take real time into account, you can only extract resources from a point during a certain time span), or 2) a NPC activity, who could be under the control of a player (essentially the same as #1 but with a NPC standing there)... still, to limit the number of "farmers" that a single player can control to either one, or be defined by some player or PC trait (charisma? industry skill card? dunno).

I think player crafting should be fun. I don't find mining or farming fun in any game (not sure if anybody does), also making 5000 swords to sell by right-clicking each or watching a progress bar doesn't seem fun to me. I do however like to combine items to make other items, specially if I have the freedom over the end result (instead of using hardcoded Recipes).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:37:02 am by Sergius »
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Virex

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2010, 10:49:56 am »

You can't run the game on crafting alone and keep crafting interesting like that tough. There may be a near-infinite amount of combinations you can make with a set of resources, but you need to generate all the results and make sure they are interesting. If you compromise on the amount of options you'll find that people quickly run out of new things to make. Of course you could limit the amount of resources available to players while keeping a large amount of different resources but then either finding resources becomes a chore or you need to offer a replacement option while they wait for resources to become available.
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Cheese

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2010, 11:19:35 am »

A bit OT, but what the hell is this armageddon? It look awesome but there's no connection addresses or anything.
Nevermind
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 11:26:34 am by Cheese »
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Andir

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2010, 11:43:16 am »

I would make resource farming either 1) an offline activity - like training in EvE Online (I mean, not forcing you to actually BE offline, but to take real time into account, you can only extract resources from a point during a certain time span), or 2) a NPC activity, who could be under the control of a player (essentially the same as #1 but with a NPC standing there)... still, to limit the number of "farmers" that a single player can control to either one, or be defined by some player or PC trait (charisma? industry skill card? dunno).
The original Star Wars Galaxies was like this.  You'd place a mining machine in a location and based on resource values in the world at that point the machine would produce X amount of resources per time unit.  If there were a lot of extractors in a particular area, you'd get less and alter the resource map.  You had the ability to scan for resources as well.
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Astral

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2010, 12:11:01 pm »

From what I hear, the original SW:G was epic. Then they screwed it and made it accessible to scrubs with an update, losing a good portion of their fanbase.
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Rakonas

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Re: The MMO Of My Dreams
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2010, 04:30:39 pm »

From what I hear, the original SW:G was epic. Then they screwed it and made it accessible to scrubs with an update, losing a good portion of their fanbase.
The original SWG was indeed epic, but tbh it had many flaws and not a large fanbase. It was still fucktarded what they did to it though. How I long to go on TIE fighter adventures and land to heal my crippling battle fatigue, sharing stories with a random pilot while listening to cantina music...
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