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[Nikov]

On the contrary, nationalism such as being German distinctively predated the formation of Germany. I am surprised you would take a position against the historically obvious.

Also Alexander's Macedonia was not Greece. It was Macedonian.

[Grakelin]

I saw that Nikov was in this thread, and knew that he was going to agree with the professor in this video.

[Nikov]

What video. What are you...

You're following me, aren't you.

[Enzo]

If this were the trailer for a movie, I would totally watch it. All it needs is a Chinese mecha or something.

[Shade-o]

What principles were abandoned that led to the 'failure' of the British Empire? Slavery? Repression? Absolute Monarchism? Imperialism? Jingoism? Opium exportation?

Honestly, I think they decided to name-drop two of the greatest empires and a vague location in the hopes of the audience saying, "Yes, that's right! Those things no longer exist, therefore the current situation is relevant, and socialist policies makes the economy stronger, but only when done by a police state!"

[Nikov]

Well seeing as the person posting this isn't going to defend the article and it won't speak for itself, I'm not sure why you're asking that question, or why you'd expect a political ad to give you deep historical context. Perhaps you should earnestly ask what principles were abandoned that led to the fall of each of those societies, and then work backwards to the truth of the matter.

Or you can just assume there's no validity in the statements because they come from a differing opinion, either way.

[Shade-o]

I'll assume that there is no validity because there is no context, no reasoning, and no evidence. All it has is "Famous old things are gone, do you want America to be gone too?". The crux of the message lies in Socialism = Bad For Economy, despite simultaneously stating that a far more despotic and socialist economy is incredibly superior.

There are many ways to make an effective political statement. Using tissue paper logic and Cold War rhetoric is not one of them.

[Nikov]

So you're not willing to think on your own then. Right.

[Shade-o]

I... am thinking on my own. I didn't consult a single (relevant) website, flyer or placard after watching that video, nor did I ask any of my friends about it.

I did learn about thermal paste however.

[Auto Slaughter]

Well seeing as the person posting this isn't going to defend the article and it won't speak for itself,

I'm sorry, up above when you said "Yeah. We might as well not." I thought that you were saying you didn't want to debate the article because my opinions about salmon would make it too... fighty, or you thought that our worldviews were so diametrically opposed that an argument would be endless and pointless.

So I thought I was acceeding to your wishes in refraining from poking at you in response to the various subtle sideways and roundabout criticisms you've seemed to make; you didn't come out and say anything directly, except that very first comment which I did respond to.  So there hasn't been anything to defend against.

If, contrary to what you said earlier, you do want to discuss this I'm certainly open to it but it's a very late night time where I am and I've got to leave for now, but I'll be back tomorrow.

Shade-o, I think that your initial assessment was dead-on; the historical name-drops are purely window dressing.  It's a complete fictional propaganda to try to make people scared of everything that Republicans' political opponents stand for.  (Including things that were originally Republican ideas, like the healthcare individual mandate, but once the Democrats got on board had to be disowned because the really important thing is to prevent the Dems from ever achieving anything and blame them for anything possible.)

And the purpose was also to leverage racist fears about an Asian Invasion of course - cut from the same cloth as spreading rumors that Obama is a Muslim (helped along by conservative speakers emphasizing "Hussein" every time they say his name) and other subtle racist elements that pervade a great deal of right-wing political messaging.

TTFN, I'm off to bed now, see you guys tomorrow.

P.S. Telling Shade-o that he wasn't "thinking on his own" because he didn't agree with you was a fantastic demonstration of how the rhetorical approaches used in this ad can be applied.

[Rilder]

Clearly Obama will die in office without naming a successor causing the US to fracture into numerous smaller nations each under a different president claiming to be the rightful heir to the USA.

[RedKing]

Clearly Obama will die in office without naming a successor causing the US to fracture into numerous smaller nations each under a different president claiming to be the rightful heir to the USA.

WIN. I see you've read Chinese history.


Nikov: Wow..you actually managed to wait until your second post in the thread before engaging in ad hominem. 


The OP is right -- this ad is a trainwreck of logic by association and a rather narrow interpretation of history. Personally, I think you could trace the fall of the Roman and British empires to imperial overreach. Too many fingers in too many overseas pies requires an ever larger army to defend, and runs an ever greater risk of entanglement in regional conflicts. Gee....now who does that sound like?

I personally love the "ChiCom" boogeyman, because like most ideas on the Right, it's so far divorced from reality as to be laughable. China is, in many ways, the most laissez-faire capitalist society on Earth. Go into any bar district of any Chinese city on any given night, and you'll find a guy (usually a minority Hui) setting up an impromptu street grill with a discarded construction girder, some chunks of poor-grade sulfurous coal and meat of dubious origin. No permit, no business registration, no health code inspection. No small business tax either. No OSHA, no benefits, no worker's comp. And the guy will bust his ass all night grilling and selling chuan skewers to people going in and out of the bars, then come morning he'll pack up and head home and then probably go to his day job.

If he gets to his street corner one night and somebody else has set up shop, there's no litigation, there's no arbitration. He either moves on to a different corner, or (more likely) gets into a heated shouting match with the new guy until one of them caves and moves on.

Businesses rise and fall on a daily basis in China, because with 1.2 billion other Chinese out there, the competition is incredibly fierce. So much so that shaving off costs by using tainted materials is a common practice. And thanks to the lack of overbearing socialist regulatory agencies like OSHA and FDA, there's not much to stop them.

I honestly don't get what Republicans dislike about this.

[Leafsnail]

So you're not willing to think on your own then. Right.

Nikov - please, with all due respect, can you try and read posts a bit more carefully before responding to them?  He was just saying that the historical examples provided in this make no sense.

The Greeks... did not collapse because of socialism.  The Romans... did not collapse because of socialism.  The British Empire... did not collapse because of socialism.  They fell apart due to a variety of economic and political factors, and to say "ZOMG SOCIALISM DESTROYS NATIONS (UNLESS YOU'RE CHINA)" is just plain dumb.

[Rilder]

Clearly Obama will die in office without naming a successor causing the US to fracture into numerous smaller nations each under a different president claiming to be the rightful heir to the USA.

WIN. I see you've read Chinese history.

Actually I was meaning the Diadochi, but okay. 

[nenjin]

This thread isn't about a new showing of the King in Yellow coming out.

I am disappoint.