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[Coffeespoons]

I think I heard something about sieges being looked at again.

I'd love some more variety.  I know magic / explosives are already much ventilated so I'll avoid those.

-Mercenaries of various shapes and sizes to provide some variety in attacking troops
-Ladders
-Wall jumpers
-Trap sniffing inventory items
-Catapults with area of effect fire
-Trap destroying suicidal pack animals / chaff to disable lines of traps
-Diggers
-Catapults which fling gobbos over walls (particularly mechanism pulling nasties)
-Sapping mining only showing entrance and not the tunnel being dug (therefore possibly requiring counter-sapping)
-Poison gas machinery (in a probably hopeless attempt to smoke the dwarves out)
-Explosive attempts to enter underground fortress
-Movable shields to protect against Marksdwarves
-Battering rams
-Gobbos with facilities to release their cage-trapped colleages

-Ultimately? a multi-tiled Dune style spice worm ridden and controlled by a hero unit moving between z-levels carving tunnels which were then used by a following goblin army.



Since starting this post perhaps I have noted an existing siege thread:

 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65748.msg1553240#msg1553240


and that sapping / mining and improved enemy AI which touches on some of the above is already on the suggestions voting thread:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/eternal_voting.php

[Neonivek]

Suicide Slaves and Captives have been used historically.

Apperantly this strategy has been quite effective. Exhaust an enemy by sending a hoard of captive civilians... then attack yourself.

[ISGC]

I want to see something to do with caged prisoners
like putting their heads on pikes or at least execution
or interrogation, once we're able to do actual raids
another use for persuasion, I guess.

[Rowanas]

Mercenaries would be fun. I think we need more cultural differences between members of the same species before mercenaries would really improve the game, but it's worth putting in, since modders can fix the lack of interesting cultures.

[Funk]

Mercenaries have been raise as a topic befor
Mercenaries or let slip the dogs of war

Mercenary companies
edit fixed links

[Muz]

I'm pretty sure most of these have been suggested. If you want a change, you could try and maintain a big fat "Siege Improvement" thread with all possible suggestions, like that "Underground Diversity" thread, which affected DF2010.

[Rowanas]

Been done. There's already an "improved sieges" thread with every suggestion so far.

[Shade-o]

Conversely, how about being able to hire mercenaries for your fortress defence? They would come with their own equipment and training, and can only act as soldiers in their squads. You can't change their equipment or organisation, but otherwise they can be controlled as normal military. Though it would be a bit superfluous for a thriving city, it might be worth it for a struggling fort that is vulnerable to forgotten beasts, demons or insanity.

As for payment? Perhaps this would give a use for coins. The Mercenary Captain arrives and heads for the Trade Depot, where you can negotiate as if with a caravan. Instead of items, they list squads of mercenaries. You give them the coin, they leave and some time later the company sends whichever mercenaries you ordered.

[jei]

I think I heard something about sieges being looked at again.

I'd love some more variety.  I know magic / explosives are already much ventilated so I'll avoid those.

-Mercenaries of various shapes and sizes to provide some variety in attacking troops

I would like a clear hierarchy and command structure in attacking troops.
A shogun or a warlord that only leads and does not take part in the battle
instead of a bunch of random goons running into the meeting place.

Demonic fortress and Hell should also have a hierarchy, not just bunch of demons and zombies.
Lots of easy little bureaucrat demons in the outer parts and one giant tough guy at the end in the
seventh ring/level. Maybe a Lich magician leading the demonic fortress.

[Rowanas]

I think a major part of improved sieges would be a comprehensive morale system. As it stands, dwarves (or anything else) either run away never, or run away after a certain number of casualties, and it's always en-masse. It wouldn't eat many FPS to  have the game check individual happiness levels and apply short term modifiers to this. If friends are dying all around, most people would fall back to another position or just plain run away, but not everyone would fall back at the same time and some would react differently to the stresses of combat. Afterwards, the "conflict modifiers" would go away, leaving the dwarf as happy as they'd normally be, plus or minus any happiness modifying events that have happened.

For instance, one squad of five goblin siegers breaks through your outer perimeter and starts turning civvies into mush, even as the dwarves are wasting the force at the gates. While the other goblin squads might suffer heavy losses, this fifth one is elated and battle frenzied, even daring to plow through a small dwarf squad on the interior. One of them takes a crossbow bolt and staggers about, losing blood, eventually deciding to "last stand" in his current position. The other four, slightly concerned but still in high spirits, go on into the fortress inner sanctum. All of this goes on to the tune of a total route outside, of which the squad know nothing.
Eventually the triumphant dwarves return and find the goblins packing bags full of dwarven wares. A short battle ensues, in which all but one is killed. Half way through this battle, his élan well and truly evaporated, one steps back out of the fight and paths to the nearest outside. The escape route blocked by angry dwarves, he takes a similar last stand to the first wounded goblin, but after taking another blow to the leg, has his battle morale fall even lower, and so, in a terribly injured state, takes the only path left to him, a sewer opening leading to the outside. Only in his panicked state will he take a dangerous path, but that is the state he finds himself in. Whether he reaches the surface is immaterial. He wants out.

Getting down to the nuts and bolts of the suggestion:

Every sentient creature has their starting "élan", which is determined by personality irrespective of their mood. Their mood does have an effect though, in determining which "path" of élan they'll be following.

N.B. All of these must be in sight of the sentient for them to count.
      "Allies" indicates any member of the civ, or friendly civ, animals etc, fighting a common foe.
      The wounded modifier applies for every wound and is cumulative, so bruised = 1x modifier, missing = 5x modifier.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ecstatic: An ecstatic combatant works themselves into an ever greater rage, repaying every slight with blood and suffering. Only by fully unleashing their fury can they lift the blood haze from their sights.
Wounded              +1
Friends Wounded   +2
Friends Killed        +6
Allies Wounded      +1
Allies Killed          +3
Lover Wounded     +3
Lover Killed          +9
Pets Wounded       +1
Pets Killed            +2
Wounds Dealt        -1
Kills Dealt             -2
Foe has kills          +1

Élan: While ecstatic soldiers may become the most feral and terrifying forces of destruction, the smallest crack will shatter them entirely.
-10   Drops weapon/shield, stands motionless.
-5     Drops weapon/shield, runs away.
0      Fights as normal.
+5    Will not kill unconscious target, instead chooses new target.
+10  Trances, will not kill targets with missing parts, instead chooses new target
20+  Trances, all physical attributes are temporarily two ranks better. Will engage new enemies constantly without regard for the old ones.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Very Happy: Very happy troops are strengthened by glorious battle, but will not rush headlong into death.
Wounded              +0
Friends Wounded   +1
Friends Killed        +3
Allies Wounded      +0
Allies Killed          +1
Lover Wounded     +2
Lover Killed          +6
Pets Wounded       +0
Pets Killed            +1
Wounds Dealt        +1
Kills Dealt             +2
Foe has kills          -1

Élan: Very happy troops are reliable in battle, displaying neither the excesses of strength, nor the depths of melancholy displayed by their battle-frenzied comrades.
-10   Runs away.
-5     Falls back to nearest allies.
0      Fights as normal.
+5    Finds new targets if friends are nearby
+10  Finds new targets if allies are nearby.
20+  Trances, will not kill unconscious targets, instead chooses new target.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Happy: Happy troops are reserved, but willing to fight. They're willing to forego posthumous glory.
Wounded              -1
Friends Wounded   +0
Friends Killed        -1
Allies Wounded      +0
Allies Killed          -1
Lover Wounded     -1
Lover Killed          -2
Pets Wounded       +0
Pets Killed            +0
Wounds Dealt        +1
Kills Dealt             +3
Foe has kills          -1

Élan: Happy troops will stoically hold the line. When forced, they will leave for safer ground.
-10   Falls back to nearest allies.
-5     Will attempt to disengage and rest a moment.
0      Fights as normal.
+5    Fights as normal.
+10  Finds new targets if friends are nearby.
20+  Trances, will not kill unconscious targets, instead chooses new target. Finds new targets if allies are nearby.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Content: Content warriors would rather not get involved, but will fight to survive. They are easily cheered by victory.
Wounded              -2
Friends Wounded   -1
Friends Killed        -2
Allies Wounded      -1
Allies Killed          -1
Lover Wounded     -2
Lover Killed          -3
Pets Wounded       -1
Pets Killed            -2
Wounds Dealt        +2
Kills Dealt             +3
Foe has kills          -2

Élan: Content troops will try not to fight on any terms but their own. Mob assaults and hit and run attacks are the trademarks of content troops.
-10   Falls back to nearest allies but will not pass too close to enemies. If there is nowhere to fall back to, will stand in position and fight.
-5     Falls back to nearest allies.
0      Will attempt to disengage and rest.
+5    Will attempt to disengage and rest if tired.
+10  Only attacks enemies if allies are nearby. Will attempt to disengage and rest if exhausted.
20+  Only attacks enemies if allies are nearby.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unhappy: Unhappy troops will fight if they must, but will seek to escape if things turn sour. They take little joy from victory.
Wounded              -2
Friends Wounded   -1
Friends Killed        -3
Allies Wounded      -1
Allies Killed          -2
Lover Wounded     -3
Lover Killed          -4
Pets Wounded       -1
Pets Killed            -1
Wounds Dealt        +1
Kills Dealt             +1
Foe has kills          -3

Élan: Unhappy troops will only fight if cornered and may take desperate measures to escape danger.
-10   Runs away, but will not pass too close to enemies. If there is nowhere to run, will attempt to path through water to escape.
-5     Falls back to nearest allies.
0      Only engages if allies are nearby. Will attempt to disengage and rest if tired.
+5    Only engages if allies are nearby. Will attempt to disengage and rest if exhausted.
+10  Only engages if allies are nearby.
20+  Only engages if allies are nearby.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Very Unhappy: Very unhappy warriors are easily shaken and difficult to marshal once broken.
Wounded:            -3
Friends Wounded   -2
Friends Killed        -4
Allies Wounded      -2
Allies Killed          -3
Lover Wounded     -4
Lover Killed          -5
Pets Wounded       -2
Pets Killed            -3
Wounds Dealt        +0
Kills Dealt             +1
Foe has kills          -4

Élan: Very unhappy troops will put up only a paper-thin defence before seeking the shelter of safety, often blind to the dangers between them and their intended goal.
-10   Runs away, passing by enemies if they must.
-5     Runs away, but will not pass too close to enemies. If there is nowhere to run, will attempt to path through water to escape.
0      Hides in room, locks the door
+5    Only engages if allies are nearby. Will attempt to disengage and rest if tired.
+10  Only engages if allies are nearby.
20+  Only engages if friends are nearby.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Miserable: Miserable troops run screaming at the slightest cut, utterly unwilling to fight.
Wounded:            -4
Friends Wounded   -3
Friends Killed        -4
Allies Wounded      -2
Allies Killed          -3
Lover Wounded     -5
Lover Killed          -7
Pets Wounded       -3
Pets Killed            -3
Wounds Dealt        -1
Kills Dealt             +0
Foe has kills          -5

Élan: Miserable troops will fight like cornered rats, but will do anything to avoid harm.
-10   Hides in room, locks the door. If disturbed by enemies in the room, all physical attributes are temporarily a rank better and trances.
-5     Hides in room, locks the door.
0      Falls back to nearest friends, will not pass near enemies.
+5    Falls back to nearest friends, will not pass near enemies.
+10  Falls back to nearest friends.
20+  Falls back to nearest allies.

This is only an overview, I'm sure lots more can be done to make it more complex by the computer to give us more varied results, but what do you guys think?

[ISGC]

snip!

I think this would be a great addition to battle reports as well, with things like "took joy in slaughter" for dwarves
"Hammergobbo rallied with his allies!"
"marksdwarf was horrified by the death of battle!"
"militia commander has become used to dealing with death."
"axe goblin is invigorated by his performance in the fight!"
"SQUAD BROKEN"

[Auto Slaughter]

The Mercenary Captain arrives and heads for the Trade Depot, where you can negotiate as if with a caravan. Instead of items, they list squads of mercenaries. You give them the coin, they leave and some time later the company sends whichever mercenaries you ordered.

How about instead, you're hiring the guards who have accompanied the caravans?  So that you have to bid against the caravan itself and win the guards away from them.

The best part will be when the mercenaries break and run and the player who thought he could get away without building a military wails and gnashes his teeth.

[TheyTarget]

-Mercenaries of various shapes and sizes to provide some variety in attacking troops (Historically accurate)
-Ladders (Historically accurate)
-Wall jumpers (Just use flying mounts)
-Trap sniffing inventory items (Would add a nice dynamic, maybe they can disarm traps but only one per unit)
-Catapults with area of effect fire (Historically accurate, and should be done)
-Trap destroying suicidal pack animals / chaff to disable lines of traps (I heard something about this, but have no source, to see if it's accurate)
-Diggers (Anything else in the game that digs would add a lot to the gameplay, but to make people happy, should have an option to not have them)
-Catapults which fling gobbos over walls (particularly mechanism pulling nasties) (Possible with some specialized creatures, I also know they used to fling dead bodies, so them throwing creature with syndrome, dead forgotten beasts, or barrels of poisons when they are added, would be nice)
-Sapping mining only showing entrance and not the tunnel being dug (therefore possibly requiring counter-sapping) (Not sure what you mean)
-Poison gas machinery (in a probably hopeless attempt to smoke the dwarves out) (I like the idea of smoking out dwarfs, like having a miasma, that can hurt dwarfs, slowly spread, if you don't deal with them)
-Explosive attempts to enter underground fortress (If gunpowder is added, then I would love this)
-Movable shields to protect against Marksdwarves (Historically accurate, though only crossbowmen ever used them, because reloading, required bending over, and being helpless)
-Battering rams (I think building destroyers cover this)
-Gobbos with facilities to release their cage-trapped colleages (Agree, if they find them, they should do that. But we should assume, it's locked in some fashion, and would require a special unit to open it, captured dwarf maybe?)


Thats my thoughts. Though none of this should be implemented until dwarfs get some new combat skills, and such to balance it all out.

[Andeerz]

-Sapping mining only showing entrance and not the tunnel being dug (therefore possibly requiring counter-sapping) (Not sure what you mean)

Oh!  Here's a very nice story to help you visualize it (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_%28military%29#In_antiquity).  I've mentioned it in at least one of the many other siege threads, but I love disseminating such awesome bits of knowledge!  :3

The Greek historian Polybius, in his Histories, gives a graphic account of mining and counter mining at the Roman siege of Ambracia:

    The Aetolians [...] offered a gallant resistance to the assault of the siege artillery and [the Romans], therefore, in despair had recourse to mines and underground tunnels. Having safely secured the central one of their three works, and carefully concealed the shaft with wattle screens, they erected in front of it a covered walk or stoa about two hundred feet long, parallel with the wall; and beginning digging from that, they carried it on unceasingly day and night, working in relays. For a considerable number of days the besieged did not discover them carrying the earth away through the shaft; but when the heap of earth thus brought out became too high to be concealed from those inside the city, the commanders of the besieged garrison set to work vigorously digging a trench inside, parallel to the wall and to the stoa which faced the towers. When the trench was made to the required depth, they next placed in a row along the side of the trench nearest the wall a number of brazen vessels made very thin; and, as they walked along the bottom of the trench past these, they listened for the noise of the digging outside. Having marked the spot indicated by any of these brazen vessels, which were extraordinarily sensitive and vibrated to the sound outside, they began digging from within, at right angles to the trench, another underground tunnel leading under the wall, so calculated as to exactly hit the enemy's tunnel. This was soon accomplished, for the Romans had not only brought their mine up to the wall, but had under-pinned a considerable length of it on either side of their mine; and thus the two parties found themselves face to face.[1]

Hiding the fact that they were digging was crucial to getting a head-start against the defenders!    Also, those vessels were an interesting tool to detect sappers...

[Coffeespoons]

In relation to the morale suggestions I think any self respecting Goblin warlord would have a suitably off-putting standard which, when captured in battle would make a particularly impressive addition to even a legendary dining room.

The trait system would help flesh out morale issues.  I'm unclear from my own play whether any particularly impact combat - my military dwarves do tend to do what they're told in respect of kill/move orders.