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[iceball3]

Though one thing to keep note of...

the steam turns the padfle on only one side due to momentum pushing it foward instead of sideways(mostly).

[Namfuak]

To assist in any further misconceptions, all you need is the wheel to be offset a bit and have the pipe be sealed around it, so the steam turns the padfle on only one side due to momentum pushing it foward instead of sideways(mostly).
Example:

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_________________________
              Ι
__________  --o--  ______
           \  Ι    /
            \ ___/
It would be more bunched up than that, but it's how it works. Sort of like putting only one part of the wheel of a waterwheel instead of the whole thing.

In order for that to work, it would need to connect to an axle that is airtight, and would still need a mechanism that held in steam to build pressure before releasing it.  This is why a piston is used in real life, not a wheel.

[G-Flex]

Though one thing to keep note of...

the steam turns the padfle on only one side due to momentum pushing it foward instead of sideways(mostly).

How much inertia do you expect steam to have?



This is something that works based on this mechanism, but it's just a visual flow indicator. This kind of assembly is pretty much useless for actually providing torque.

[iceball3]

Ok fine, bad idea. How about the circular up-down or vice versa turbine?

[G-Flex]

Beats me! Honestly, I think manufacturing capability is the biggest obstacle here. Good luck making airtight seals (and everything else) that withstand high temperature and pressure and remain airtight using your medieval forge and casting works.

By the way, if you wanted to use a water-wheel/windmill type design, what might work better would be setting up the wheel such that it's coaxial with the pipe, with the blades curved such that the wheel winds up spinning only in one direction. It would still be extremely inefficient, and manufacturing concerns would still screw you over, but yeah.

[Fayrik]

I think my point earlier was missed abit...
I was trying to say, all the components are there, we just need the physics!

As for setup, it'd be rather simple.

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   #####
   #\|/#
   #-o-#
   #/|\#
   #¦#¦#
 ###¦#¦###
 === # ===
 MMM###WWW
IN-> | OUT->All the components are in the game, as I previously said.
Make the in and out a closed loop with a pump and drain to regulate water capacity.
As for the flow and pressure systems, it's already dealt with by the magma. If your system is full of water already, the magma will build the pressure.

And, keeping it airtight? Okay, I hadn't thought of that one but aparently it's possible to shift magma with dwarven engineering. If they can do that, I don't see too much of a problem here.

[Vehudur]

To assist in any further misconceptions, all you need is the wheel to be offset a bit and have the pipe be sealed around it, so the steam turns the padfle on only one side due to momentum pushing it foward instead of sideways(mostly).
Example:

Code: [Select]

_________________________
              Ι
__________  --o--  ______
           \  Ι    /
            \ ___/
It would be more bunched up than that, but it's how it works. Sort of like putting only one part of the wheel of a waterwheel instead of the whole thing.

The upper and lefthand blades on the wheel would both see pretty much the same fluid pressure from the steam. That's the problem. And if the wheel did turn clockwise a little bit, the steam would just leak through the bottom to the bottom-most wheel and exert similar pressure on that as well, in addition to steam escaping through empty space near the top (doing no useful work).

This is ignoring the problem of manufacturing concerns. You need to be able to produce extremely precise, tight-fitting parts that can withstand high temperature and pressure (and in a moist environment).

To put it bluntly, yes it would work.

First of all, he's right, all the parts are here already and we just need the physics.

It would, obviously, look different from his little ASCII image, but that's pretty damn close to the horizontal waterwheels the Romans had.  Do you know the difference between a waterwheel and a steam turbine?  Not much.  A case over the whole damn thing and it being made of materials that don't corrode easily.  Or, you can use steel and just have to replace it periodically. 

Do you think that modern hydroturbines are more precisely machined then waterwheels from the middle ages?  Of course they are.  If you make anything more precise you make it more efficient.  An imprecise machine would still work, however.

Steam is a gas, sure, but it's an unusual gas.  Air you can compress easily, this means if you tried to blow air through a turbine the smallest of flaws would cause a huge drop in power.  Water, being a liquid, will barely be able to exploit that flaw to avoid having to do work on the turbine (see: push it).  Steam is a gas, but is extremely difficult to compress, behaving closer to water than air.  You will loose a good deal of energy from any flaws, but it would still work.

Also, the pressure is more dependent on being able to force more through a smaller area than anything else.  Have a large boiler and a small outlet pipe and you get a lot of pressure.

You can test this in-game even, if you know how, but clearly fluid dynamics are way over your head.

As for the turbine design, lets put this to rest, shal we:   This is based off real-world designs, so yes, it would work.

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XXXXX_____XXXXX
XXXX/  I  ===+= (steam pipe in)
XXX/ \ I / \XXX
XXI----O----IXX
XXX\ / I \ /XXX
XXXX\  I  /XXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Z+1

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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In case you don't get it, the outlet for the steam is actually to the side, on the opposite side the axle enters.  Bonus points if you make the vanes cup shaped.  More bonus points if you slope the ends to point at the direction of flow.

AND I'll say it again, for good measure:  You don't need precision parts, it's just more efficient if you do have them.

[Namfuak]

I think my point earlier was missed abit...
I was trying to say, all the components are there, we just need the physics!

As for setup, it'd be rather simple.

Code: [Select]

   #####
   #\|/#
   #-o-#
   #/|\#
   #¦#¦#
 ###¦#¦###
 === # ===
 MMM###WWW
IN-> | OUT->All the components are in the game, as I previously said.
Make the in and out a closed loop with a pump and drain to regulate water capacity.
As for the flow and pressure systems, it's already dealt with by the magma. If your system is full of water already, the magma will build the pressure.

And, keeping it airtight? Okay, I hadn't thought of that one but aparently it's possible to shift magma with dwarven engineering. If they can do that, I don't see too much of a problem here.

This is a good one.  How does this work again?  How do you get over the fact that the steam will just fill the chamber and only has one way in and out?

I'm really sorry I'm getting insulting, but this is ridiculous.  It isn't happening.

[ivansanchez]

Beats me! Honestly, I think manufacturing capability is the biggest obstacle here. Good luck making airtight seals (and everything else) that withstand high temperature and pressure and remain airtight using your medieval forge and casting works.

And you think that dorfs won't be able to build that? Man, right now they can build frakkin' dragon-proof wooden cages. Not to forget about turning raw chunks of random stone into a super-solid with infinite tensile strenght. And quantum stockpiles to put on top of that supersolid constructed floors.

And you're worried about airtightness? Meh. This is DWARF FORTRESS, for frak's sake!

[G-Flex]

Beats me! Honestly, I think manufacturing capability is the biggest obstacle here. Good luck making airtight seals (and everything else) that withstand high temperature and pressure and remain airtight using your medieval forge and casting works.

And you think that dorfs won't be able to build that? Man, right now they can build frakkin' dragon-proof wooden cages. Not to forget about turning raw chunks of random stone into a super-solid with infinite tensile strenght. And quantum stockpiles to put on top of that supersolid constructed floors.

And you're worried about airtightness? Meh. This is DWARF FORTRESS, for frak's sake!

The game having absurdities due to incompleteness is not an excuse to knowingly introduce more absurd features. It's an alpha. Of course there are oddities like that.

[Brandstone]

I can't believe that a wikipedia article hasn't been linked yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_steam_engine

[ivansanchez]

How does this work again?  How do you get over the fact that the steam will just fill the chamber and only has one way in and out?

By realising that the steam pressure is higher at the input and lower at the output. This works by pressure differential, people.

You put energy into the system by compressing (and heating) the fluid, then get the energy out by letting it uncompress (and cool down). Go look how an intercooler works.

Now, do uncompressible fluids (water) in DF behave as if their flow could be affected by temperature? Do compressible fluids (air/steam) behave as if their flow could be affected by pressure?

[krenshala]

Beats me! Honestly, I think manufacturing capability is the biggest obstacle here. Good luck making airtight seals (and everything else) that withstand high temperature and pressure and remain airtight using your medieval forge and casting works.

By the way, if you wanted to use a water-wheel/windmill type design, what might work better would be setting up the wheel such that it's coaxial with the pipe, with the blades curved such that the wheel winds up spinning only in one direction. It would still be extremely inefficient, and manufacturing concerns would still screw you over, but yeah.

You apparently aren't familiar with Hero's Steam Engine.  On that same page is a very simple steam powered boat that uses no moving parts (about half way down the page).  There are some other interesting, but simple, examples on that page as well.

Now, if Toady says "no steam power" then we live with(out) it, but it is most definitely withing the reach of any civ that can create magma pumps, water wheels and wind mills.

[krenshala]

How does this work again?  How do you get over the fact that the steam will just fill the chamber and only has one way in and out?

By realising that the steam pressure is higher at the input and lower at the output. This works by pressure differential, people.

You put energy into the system by compressing (and heating) the fluid, then get the energy out by letting it uncompress (and cool down). Go look how an intercooler works.

Now, do uncompressible fluids (water) in DF behave as if their flow could be affected by temperature? Do compressible fluids (air/steam) behave as if their flow could be affected by pressure?

Yeah, the (non quoted) design here should work really well.  Run water in over the magma, which heats it to steam.  That steam goes up (towards lower pressure, and as it rises it turns the wheel, cools, condenses, and then the water and whatever steam hasn't condensed falls, still moving towards the area of lower pressure, then it hits the output side and is cycled back around to the input side.

Hell, this one doesn't even earn the name Perpetual Motion Machine, because it requires the input energy from the magma to work.  place this perpendicular to, and on top of, a magma "river" and it will work just fine (and would probably be considered geothermal).

[Halnoth]

Good luck making airtight seals (and everything else) that withstand high temperature and pressure and remain airtight using your medieval forge and casting works.

HERON
The steam engine was invented by Heron, an ancient Greek geometer and engineer from Alexandria. Heron lived during the first century AD and is sometimes called Hero. Heron made the steam engine as a toy, and called his device "aeolipile," which means "wind ball" in Greek. The steam was supplied by a sealed pot filled with water and placed over a fire. Two tubes came up from the pot, letting the steam flow into a spherical ball of metal. The metallic sphere had two curved outlet tubes, which vented steam. As the steam went through the series of tubes, the metal sphere rotated. The Greeks never used this remarkable device for anything but a novelty.