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[Jim Groovester]

Nah. I've said my piece. People are quite capable of weighing the arguments and decide on their own.

Awesome. That means I can count on you to shut up when I actually put the plan in place.

Since I've made such a big deal about it, I'm going to recommend that people focus their support on the Red and Black schools of magic. These are completely random and arbitrary. Since I'm not going to ask you what school you're supporting whether or not you actually go through with this is entirely up to you, but I hope I've made a convincing enough argument about the merits of choosing two schools. Remember, though, that the amount of support each school receives will be revealed at the beginning of the next day.

Eduren, IronyOwl, Jokerman-EXE: Aside from some light RVS jabs you haven't said very much. Care to comment on anything?

[IronyOwl]

- IronyOwl (Would probably claim being sorcerer for no reason, so maybe a good scumbuddy)

Eh? What do you mean "claim being sorcerer for no reason?"

Criptfeind, would you rather be a well-informed apprentice or an in-the-dark sorcerer?

I don't understand this question as it seem both groups know almost as much, there seems to be not differing. But as for your question, I am thinking Sorcerer because that is a powerful role and thus I will know it we have one.

It's a hypothetical question. You know, where you invent a scenario to see how someone would react to it, then try to draw conclusions from that?

In terms of your answer, Criptfeind, every surviving color has one sorcerer associated with it, so everyone knows which sorcerers we've got. Why would "know it we have one" be useful?

Also at this point I will not put the third vote on Zathras but I am not against a lynch if he does not start talking as normal as he can.

Immediately lynching a player for rhyming doesn't seem counterproductive to you?

Eduren, IronyOwl, Jokerman-EXE: Aside from some light RVS jabs you haven't said very much. Care to comment on anything?

Ninja'd.

[Jokerman-EXE]

I think that Cript is overreacting on Zathras, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's unwarranted.

I can see where Zath is coming from with his statements. I disagree, because I think that the risks involved are necessary for a successful (and fulfilling) town game. Sort of what Jim was saying.

However, he raises a few points that are at least defensible. It appears to me that Cript is just looking for reasons to vote for someone that already has a ton of votes on him. I don't really see the buddying beyond the obvious "oh God they voted the same person" argument, but that's too easy.

Care to comment, Cript?

[Zathras]

Bandwagoning noted.

:/
You refuse to back up your arguments or even explain what you are thinking. You start doing that and I will not vote you.

I did, and it provoked Jim's fit. It's not like I left the questions unanswered, I just left it at one tit and one tat, no need to drag the entire thread down for it. But if you think we should continue, sure, let me know of specific questions.

along with previous reluctance.

So it is a bad thing to not vote someone who you are not sure of when they have TWO votes on them for the same reasons?

Support of buddy also noted.

So when I think Jim is right it is supporting my buddy, I ask you, if I had decided you made sense and voted Jim would you have voted me for agreeing with you?

As you agreed earlier, jumping into a bandwagon earlier would have made you look scummy, so you waited until you could do it under cover of "argument lost" or whatever. It was scummy to resist first, and more scummy to finally jump in at the slightest opportunity. As for the support, you have seem very supportive of both him and his plan, which strikes me as buddying. If you had buddied me (which is more than just an agreement) someone would probably have voted one of us for it, yes.

Criptfeind, you're scummy as well,
dropping tell after tell after tell,
      but people will figure,
      their thoughts reconfigure.
and both of you'll end up in hell.

Nah. I've said my piece. People are quite capable of weighing the arguments and decide on their own.

Awesome. That means I can count on you to shut up when I actually put the plan in place.

I will speak or not when I choose, thanks. But go ahead. Carry on.

Since I've made such a big deal about it, I'm going to recommend that people focus their support on the Red and Black schools of magic. These are completely random and arbitrary. Since I'm not going to ask you what school you're supporting whether or not you actually go through with this is entirely up to you, but I hope I've made a convincing enough argument about the merits of choosing two schools. Remember, though, that the amount of support each school receives will be revealed at the beginning of the next day.

Everyone will make their choices or not, based on your plan or not, but for the record the thing that most gives me pause is the bolded part. You claim they are random and arbitrary, but if you are scum, then you are asking (with 50% chance) that people support scum powers, which is a great increase over the 25% you'd get if everyone chose randomly. Since I don't trust you to not be scum, I see it as a reach to double your scum's PR potential power. Plus, if someone jumps in with "no, no, do red and white", we'll be drowning in wine by the end of the day.

Eduren, IronyOwl, Jokerman-EXE: Aside from some light RVS jabs you haven't said very much. Care to comment on anything?

With this I heartly agree, and add Org and JetSquirrel. Jump in, guys.

[Criptfeind]

In terms of your answer, Criptfeind, every surviving color has one sorcerer associated with it, so everyone knows which sorcerers we've got. Why would "know it we have one" be useful?

Sorcerer=Power role

Town power role=Good

Scum power role=Bad

All we know is that there are three sorcerers left, the more that are town the better, thus if given the choice I would one to make sure it is on our side.

On the other hand in your hypothetical game (and this is why I was confused) it would not matter because the greater part of the town will know who is scum anyway.

Immediately lynching a player for rhyming doesn't seem counterproductive to you?

If he does nothing but rhyme? Sounds like a good idea too me.

Care to comment, Cript?

I see no points that are not founded in horrid horrid logic and desperately need to be rethought, if you can point out one or two I might be able to say more.

I did

No, that is just repeating what you said earlier and not explaining your thought process behind it. WHY do you think that it give the scum targets? WHY will it increase the scums power? He said nothing about people calling for a color, he and I both just want to use some simple math to put more power in the towns hands. I belive the thinking here is:

1: The scum are VERY unlikely to two power roles.

2: Although they can coordinate their powers better the relative magnitude of the scums power will be less next to the night kill

3: Thus the most amount of power spread around is a good thing because that will stop the scum form getting a monopoly on power.

You are basically fighting against the town getting info.

As you agreed earlier, jumping into a bandwagon earlier would have made you look scummy, so you waited until you could do it under cover of "argument lost" or whatever. It was scummy to resist first, and more scummy to finally jump in at the slightest opportunity. As for the support, you have seem very supportive of both him and his plan, which strikes me as buddying. If you had buddied me (which is more than just an agreement) someone would probably have voted one of us for it, yes.

God are you so stupid, if something is logical I will support it. I did not jump on you because you had two votes saying stop rhyming already! I gave you plenty of time to argue your case but when you failed at logic and you seemed scummy I voted you.

[Zathras]

No, that is just repeating what you said earlier and not explaining your thought process behind it. WHY do you think that it give the scum targets? WHY will it increase the scums power? He said nothing about people calling for a color[...]

I explain the increase in scum's powers in my previous reply. If everyone chooses randomly from black, white, red or none, they get 25% support. If everyone chooses randomly from two colours proposed by scum, they get 50% support. Unless you know that the person proposing the colours is town, you risk a 100% increase in scum's potential PR power. Do you know JimG to be Town?

Hi did call for a colour: red/black. He asks us to trust in his towniehood that he chose them arbitrarily and randomly. I do not trust that. He painted himself as a target by calling those two colours, and anyone else calling for others will as well, as, if you don't believe they chose them randomly, they're either a town PR (nightkill target) or scum.

he and I both just want to use some simple math to put more power in the towns hands. [...] You are basically fighting against the town getting info.

Your math sucks. And I wouldn't be against it if it was "getting info", but it isn't; what information are you gaining? It's just giving power to the scum, and indulging in WIFOMy arguments. Or what do you think will happen if someone else comes in with "No! Support Black and White! I am Town and decided them arbitrarily and randomly!"

God are you so stupid, if something is logical I will support it. [...]you failed at logic and you seemed scummy I voted you.

God you are so eloquent. It's so fulfilling and uplifting to have a conversation with you or your buddy there, whose pinnacle of debate seems to be "SRSLY? You dis stooopid?!"

But vote me if you wish. Your argument is still bunk, your maths are a failure, and your plan is, in my opinion, counterproductive.

[Jim Groovester]

I can make an argument against voting using your exact logic against organizing support.

I mean, if you're so scared you might unknowingly support scum, maybe you'd like to stop voting because you might unknowingly lynch town? How are you so sure that the person you're voting isn't scum? Maybe you should stop doing everything altogether because you might make a mistake.

It's a tool. It should be used and used effectively. Supporting randomly or not at all is completely unproductive.

[Criptfeind]

Huh. That argument was quite a bit more... Something. I go by gut and that past post of your feels different some. I am not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing and it is much to late here.

But you have given me pause for thought.

[Zathras]

I think that Cript is overreacting on Zathras, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's unwarranted.
I can see where Zath is coming from with his statements. I disagree, because I think that the risks involved are necessary for a successful (and fulfilling) town game.

The maths don't support the plan; there is a large chance of a stronger scum. For instance, let's assume that there are two Town PRs and one scum PR.

If everyone chooses one of three colours evenly (forgetting "none"), then each PR will have two supporters (plus the colour sorcerer himself). If one colour is taken out, 66% chance it will be one of the Town, leaving the scum PR with 3 supporters (50% stronger), and one Town with zero (nerfed utterly). Even if JimG is honest, scum wins 50% power and Town loses/nerfs a PR.

If you add that scum is guaranteed one supporter (his scumbuddy[1]), the odds for scum power increase are even greater.

The only way this strategy is a win for Town is if the colour left out is that of the scum... which is impossible to know without claims, right?

If he continues to support his plan, even after seeing the maths in black and white (heh), then he is being actively anti-town, and my convictions on his scumhood will continue to increase.

^{[1]: We have only two scum in a nine player game, right? or could there be three?}

[JanusTwoface]

^{[1]: We have only two scum in a nine player game, right? or could there be three?}

There are 3 Dark Sorcerers/Apprentices in this particular game although with the Sorcerer's the game will not end until it's guaranteed that one side or the other wins.

[Jim Groovester]

There are 3 Dark Sorcerers/Apprentices in this particular game although with the Sorcerer's the game will not end until it's guaranteed that one side or the other wins.

*cough* *sputter* *cough*

Let's get our win conditions straight. The town wins if they exile just the Dark Sorcerer/s? The Dark Apprentices are irrelevant to the town's win condition?

[Zathras]

^{[1]: We have only two scum in a nine player game, right? or could there be three?}

There are 3 Dark Sorcerers/Apprentices in this particular game although with the Sorcerer's the game will not end until it's guaranteed that one side or the other wins.

Ouch. Well, that makes the numbers against the plan even worse, as scum is guaranteed 2 followers, plus a 66% chance of two-to-four more from the town, and 66% of a nerfed Town PR... just give scum a bazooka, why don't you?

Janus: by guaranteed, do you mean to say that a 3 vs. 3 is not a win for scum? Do they have to actually outnumber town to win?

[JanusTwoface]

Oh terminology.  Official win conditions:
- The innocents win if there are no more Dark Sorcerers / Apprentices present.
- The Dark Sorcerers win if it's no longer possible to remove the remaining Dark Sorcerers / Apprentices.

If there are still Sorcerers alive, the scum aren't guaranteed to automatically win at even numbers.

[Zathras]

Ouch. Well, it'll be fun if nothing else.

So Jim Groovester, have you any savoury retorts this time? My maths check out? Do you still recommend people follow your plan? Do you really want me to reply to your strawman about voting being risky (it's your strawman, you deal with it)?

[Jim Groovester]

Those are all the wrong questions. Here's the right one:

Have you considered the investigatory benefits of choosing two in an organized fashion instead of just supporting randomly, especially in light of the revelation that there are three scum?

Why don't you think about that for a second, about what it will let us know tomorrow.

Get back to me when you think you have the answer.