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Author Topic: Darklands remake is underway  (Read 56612 times)

Sowelu

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2012, 07:00:33 pm »

Well, if the name can be changed to an analogue that's more historically accurate without balance changes (still need two armors per thickness level)...
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2012, 09:11:45 pm »

@ G-Flex -

   I think we are talking past each other.

   So, E.G. Gygax messed up and "Invented" Studded Leather Armor.  Actually most likely confused over Brigandine as you stated.   Still the same end result, a light armor.  Though, personally, I would put lamellar into the same group as Leather, and put Brigandine in with Chain and Scale.  Leaving Splint and Plate for the Heavy Armor.

   Now, define Large Metal Disks and Studs? 

   I should have been more specific on the size of the "Large Metal Disks".  I am talking about 1-2" disks, so in effect more of a lamellar armor.

   I will reiterate, Studded Leather is not a Video creation, it was around LONG before Video games existed.

@ Sowelu - Exactly, change Darklands Studded Leather to a more historically accurate Lamellar of the period.
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G-Flex

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2012, 09:13:34 pm »

I will reiterate, Studded Leather is not a Video creation, it was around LONG before Video games existed.

I didn't really address this point, because I agree with it. A lot of modern videogame trends regarding arms and armor are basically D&Disms.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #153 on: January 05, 2012, 03:00:44 pm »

Lamellar seems like a strange choice to substitute in for studded leather, unless you're referring to an all-leather lamellar. Most lamellar suits I've seen are pretty heavy-duty, and about on par with chain if not better.

Ring mail might be a better substitution, although it's not really confirmed whether or not it ever got used historically beyond some illustrations.
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #154 on: January 05, 2012, 04:25:25 pm »

Lamellar seems like a strange choice to substitute in for studded leather, unless you're referring to an all-leather lamellar. Most lamellar suits I've seen are pretty heavy-duty, and about on par with chain if not better.

Ring mail might be a better substitution, although it's not really confirmed whether or not it ever got used historically beyond some illustrations.

The gaps between the plates in lamellar are their vulnerability.  That said, I can agree with you, about leather, bone or wood lamellar armors being equivalent to studded leather, and metal plate lamellar being considered closer to scale/chain/ring (Which is sewn cloer together, and with better patterns to make it hareder to slash between rings) armors.

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Mephansteras

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #155 on: January 05, 2012, 05:45:03 pm »

Lamellar seems like a strange choice to substitute in for studded leather, unless you're referring to an all-leather lamellar. Most lamellar suits I've seen are pretty heavy-duty, and about on par with chain if not better.

Ring mail might be a better substitution, although it's not really confirmed whether or not it ever got used historically beyond some illustrations.

The gaps between the plates in lamellar are their vulnerability.  That said, I can agree with you, about leather, bone or wood lamellar armors being equivalent to studded leather, and metal plate lamellar being considered closer to scale/chain/ring (Which is sewn cloer together, and with better patterns to make it hareder to slash between rings) armors.

Fair enough. I think the issue with gaps in lamellar depends a lot on the design (I've seen plenty of lamellars done with almost no gaps between plates) but I've also seen ones where the gaps looked like a rather risky aspect. Lamellar was certainly used in eastern Europe and the middle east extensively in place of (or along side) chain, even though they also had the technology to make chain. I imagine that each type has different advantages depending on who you fight most often.

I'm also not sure how often non-metal lamellars were used in Europe. So while going with a bone or wood lamellar might be reasonable, it might also be a bit off for the period Darklands is set in.

If nothing else you could always go with a chain/scale/lamellar vest as the upgrade from basic leather. Not much coverage, but good enough protection for the vitals to be ok armor if you can't afford better.
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G-Flex

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #156 on: January 05, 2012, 07:35:37 pm »

Ring mail might be a better substitution, although it's not really confirmed whether or not it ever got used historically beyond some illustrations.

Not to be pedantic, but since we're already having a discussion about historical accuracy: There's no such thing as "ring mail". That's another video game/D&Dism. Mostly just a matter of semantics, but still.
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a1s

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #157 on: January 05, 2012, 07:48:27 pm »

Not to be pedantic, but since we're already having a discussion about historical accuracy: There's no such thing as "ring mail". That's another video game/D&Dism. Mostly just a matter of semantics, but still.
It's not actually a matter of semantics. Chain mail is real. Ring mail is a Victorian invention (apparently someone misread the Bayeux Tapestry). It was also by random chance used in China, but even there it was very rare.
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2012, 06:26:39 am »

Not to be pedantic, but since we're already having a discussion about historical accuracy: There's no such thing as "ring mail". That's another video game/D&Dism. Mostly just a matter of semantics, but still.
It's not actually a matter of semantics. Chain mail is real. Ring mail is a Victorian invention (apparently someone misread the Bayeux Tapestry). It was also by random chance used in China, but even there it was very rare.

However, very rare does not mean no such thing.  That even one example exists from ancient China (More likely Mongolia and the Mongol invasion), proves that it was not a D&D/Video invention.  Many Chinese inventions had already made their way to Europe by this time, stirrups being one prime example.  So, could someone have made Ring Mail and used it in Medieval Europe?  Sure.  Was it commonly in use, most likely not.

As for its accuracy in a Medieval Europe based historical context, I think we can all agree, probably not.
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a1s

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2012, 03:24:48 pm »

Many Chinese inventions had already made their way to Europe by this time, stirrups being one prime example.  So, could someone have made Ring Mail and used it in Medieval Europe?  Sure.  Was it commonly in use, most likely not.
Not only are stirrups Indian, they are also an idea ("let's connect a riders leg to the saddle"), where as a ring mail has an entire manufacturing technique to go with it.
More importantly, while they could conceivably make it, would they? Not really. Between it being a foreign design and being, frankly, inferior to a chain-mail, while requiring almost as much labor (alternatively being more labor intensive then a brigandine in both production and maintenance and only marginally lighter) and finally being rather too expensive to make on a lark, I doubt anyone in Europe would be making these.
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2012, 04:23:02 pm »

Many Chinese inventions had already made their way to Europe by this time, stirrups being one prime example.  So, could someone have made Ring Mail and used it in Medieval Europe?  Sure.  Was it commonly in use, most likely not.
Not only are stirrups Indian, they are also an idea ("let's connect a riders leg to the saddle"), where as a ring mail has an entire manufacturing technique to go with it.
More importantly, while they could conceivably make it, would they? Not really. Between it being a foreign design and being, frankly, inferior to a chain-mail, while requiring almost as much labor (alternatively being more labor intensive then a brigandine in both production and maintenance and only marginally lighter) and finally being rather too expensive to make on a lark, I doubt anyone in Europe would be making these.

I didn't know that the Jin Dynasty was from India?   :D 

Paired stirrups were credited with that Dynasty. 

What you are talking about is a single toe loop, used more for mounting a horse than staying on it while under way.  Not sure I would consider that a stirrup.  But again, we are talking semantics, as with Ring Mail.

Not sure how you think making a few dozen 2" or 3" rings, and sewing them to a single leather hauberk at four points on each ring, is more labor intensive than:

1)  Making thousands of tiny links, linking and riveting them together to form a full shirt.  (Having helped a Dutch friend make a suit in 1986, which we did not rivet, but simply butted the ends of each link.  I know how labor intensive this process is first hand.)

or

2)  Making dozens of small metal plates, sandwiching them between a layer of cloth and leather, and sewing them in place.  (Again, I (With lots of help from others) made a suit of Bridandine for fighting in the SCA in the late 80's, again in Europe, using thick leather instead of metal plates, and two layers of manufactured cloth.)

As for maintenance of said armors, brigandine would have to have the cloth backing replaced at least annualy, that is if you only practiced in it and didn't actually have a sword cut through the material.  The edges of the metal plates easily wearing through the cloth with normal wear.  Heck, my leather plates wore the cloth bare quickly, through normal use, fighting with duct tape wrapped rattan instead of steel blades.

Chain mail required extensive maintenance, oiling to prevent rust, broken links from combat, requiring repairs.

Seems to me, both are far more labor intensive in creation and repair than Ring Mail would be.

Just sayin'
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a1s

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2012, 06:30:25 pm »

Didn't look at the photos there. Oops. So... how is that thing even armor? The gaps in the rings have to be, what, 2-3 inches across? I guess it would protect from being cut with a sword, but it would be no help when getting stabbed with a knife or an arrow. Or just being hit with a big stick I imagine. Though I suppose I'm out of my depth by now, and if you say it's easier to produce then a brigandine, I'll believe your experience.
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2012, 06:42:44 pm »

Didn't look at the photos there. Oops. So... how is that thing even armor? The gaps in the rings have to be, what, 2-3 inches across? I guess it would protect from being cut with a sword, but it would be no help when getting stabbed with a knife or an arrow. Or just being hit with a big stick I imagine. Though I suppose I'm out of my depth by now, and if you say it's easier to produce then a brigandine, I'll believe your experience.

Yep, really only more effective than leather against slashing attacks (Swords).  Though it would add a very slight bit more protection to axes, halberds and maces.  But not enough to really count.  Since slashing swords were theweapons of choice in most of the world at the time, seems that it would be worth the extra effort for the protection, plus faster and cheaper to produce than brigandine and chain.

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G-Flex

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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2012, 06:45:41 pm »

Didn't look at the photos there. Oops.

Which photos are you referring to?
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Re: Darklands remake is underway
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2012, 06:56:20 pm »

Didn't look at the photos there. Oops.

Which photos are you referring to?
there's a link to a photo of the Asian model in the Wikipedia article. It's like an arts and craft project gone wrong.
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