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[Flintus10]

And Flintus lurked in the start of the game quite much and activly attacked ottofar because it could be a easy lynch for you.
so Flintus what do you have to say about this blob of text?

I have explained about three times now but it seems I must one more time.  It is not lurking if I am physically unable to use a computer. Hell I even gave prior warning to the two  RL days I missed during day one

And what do you mean I actively attacked Ottofar because it would be an easy lynch. I was the first to vote for him and only continued attacking him because he would not defend himself, his reason for trying to lynch you or even contribute in any meaningful way.

[Mindmaker]

I'm not answering any of your question, until you answer some of mine, Flintus.
If this is enough reason to vote me, then do so.
I believe a certain other player will be happy to add his vote.

That's it, I guess.
At least with the town unorganized and callous, as it is now.

Town is going to lose hardcore in this game.

[Jetsquirrel]

And Flintus lurked in the start of the game quite much and activly attacked ottofar because it could be a easy lynch for you.
so Flintus what do you have to say about this blob of text?

I have explained about three times now but it seems I must one more time.  It is not lurking if I am physically unable to use a computer. Hell I even gave prior warning to the two  RL days I missed during day one

And what do you mean I actively attacked Ottofar because it would be an easy lynch. I was the first to vote for him and only continued attacking him because he would not defend himself, his reason for trying to lynch you or even contribute in any meaningful way.

huh what? i already red the answer or i must've have forgotten it and answered the same question again...

[Azure Sepulchre]

...a'ight.

For scum, my top tell is whiners. People who don't try to defend themselves from an attack and simply OMGUS them out of spite, or just sit there complaining about a vote on them or about how he game tis going and doing little else. The whole 'why me = fry me' logic, basically, which I believe works. The third or fourth bandwagoneer, too, obviously, which was why I was gonna suspect Kamina today if he hadn't been done in. Lurking can be a scumtell, but in my experience it generally isn't (particulaly due to the whole spiral of quiet that's descended on most games around here and the fact that everyone likes to lurk in IRC games). Flakiness and bouncing between votes is very scummy, in my opinion. Ending the day without a final vote on anyone despite plenty of FOS's and chatting is scummy (yeah, you guys know who I'm talking about. =/). Buddying/keeping a large distance between yourself and another player, bodyguard defending, using plenty of WIFOM arguments, curt answers that tell the town nothing, dolling out FOS's like pain pills but keeping your vote on a tight leash... I think that's a long enough list. There's more, but these are the more important ones to me.

As for town... hrm. Actually hunting's the big one, of course. Sitting on your laurels with your hands in your pockets will just get the town killed - which means the most obvious townie is the one hunting the hardest, although I'd personally trust the one trying second-hardest as the first could perhaps be scum trying too hard. Asking penetrating questions instead of letting others do all the work, avoiding sheeping on a risky lynch, thinking nothing of the liklihood you will die to lynch a scum, having sound reasoning backing up every critical move you make, suspecting everything within reason and using a fair amount of common sense. I think that's about all I look for in town, although most could be easily replicated by scum who knew what they were doing. A fool-proof method, though? I don't think one exists. >.>

Hrm... actually, I think I'll wait for Web to post again before I go any further. I'm interested it hearing what he has to say as it could influence what I would consider a scumtell, and I need time to slim down this damn massive list anyway. Hell, some of you are practically short stories, due to a bunch of minor tells I figured were relevent. Nonetheless, no point in posting a bloody wall of text if it'd be such an awful read. >.>

[Mindmaker]

People who don't try to defend themselves from an attack and simply OMGUS them out of spite

In this case, I don't see how you simply seemed to have "forgotten" about Elegy.

Ending the day without a final vote on anyone despite plenty of FOS's and chatting is scummy (yeah, you guys know who I'm talking about. =/).

Well we've seen where the last FOS has led us, didn't we?
And what's the point on being the only person with a vote on someone?
As long as you can't convince anyone to vote for the same person, it's wrothless.
I doubt anyone of the mafia would care, if I placed a single vote on him.

By the way, my questions still haven't been answered, Azure/Flintus.

[Azure Sepulchre]

In this case, I don't see how you simply seemed to have "forgotten" about Elegy.

I haven't. Otto used a "gut feeling" argument, which is daft. You can't expect other people to believe in a lynch if that's all you have. You won't convince me Otto wasn't acting scummy, so please stop trying to. I also haven't once mentioned Elegy/Jet is above suspicion. I simply went for who I believed was the correct choice, and Otto superceded Elegy in scumminess; something else I believe I have already mentioned. Now leave the horse alone; it died days ago.

Well we've seen where the last FOS has led us, didn't we?

Ooh, meow. Perhaps you're right, though. Maybe we should have gone for your intended lynch target. No Vote is one pretty scummy bastard, after all. Damn lurker.

And no, you haven't pissed me off. I'll just stop being snide when you do.

And what's the point on being the only person with a vote on someone?
As long as you can't convince anyone to vote for the same person, it's wrothless.

Dammit, man, your vote is your only scumhunting weapon! How were you supposed to convince the town to vote for someone else if you're not even willing to put it down on them? Instead you just sat on the bench like you didn't give a damn who was being lynched! Hell, if you still wanted to stop the Ottofar lynch, all you had to do was vote for one of the other people that had one vote on them and convince someone else to - equal votes means a no lynch. But no. Votes don't do anything. >.>

Actually... that sounds a lot like a scum argument. Thinking only of the value of a vote instead of the conoctations behind it makes me wonder why it's only the vote you care about. Care to elaborate, Mindmaker, on what makes you think of a vote in this context? Why didn't you try to save Otto, if you were so very sure he wasn't scum? Hmm?

I doubt anyone of the mafia would care, if I placed a single vote on him.

Bahahaa... heh. Quite funny, that, if you consider the implications of that sentence from another angle. Or perhaps that was a slip. I know I was uncomfortable with telling outright lies when I first played as scum. I often tried to hide any slips behind double-meanings, used turn of phrases. Tried to hide what I was saying in a mask of text. I wonder...

Anyway, yeah; you're right. Your questions have been on the bench quite a while, and I'm free at the moment.

Flintus/Azure:
What do you think about Ottofar turning out to be town?
What will you do now? Any new "targets" (Oh how ambiguous!)?
And how do you see my role in all of this? I was supposed to be the scumbuddy, isn't that right?

1) ...seriously? What, are you expecting me to say I'm ecstatic? I got a townie lynched by accident, my next FOS was NK'd, and the maf left me alive either because I'm supposed to take the fall or because I'm now about as clueless as everyone else and Kamina wasn't. I feel like a god damn moron. >.> But meh, they're dead and there's nothing I can do about that, so I'll just have to see what I can do about the scum instead.

2) Yes. You. Presuming one of my former theories was correct and maf let me live to work a lynch on me, then the strongest two contenders so far are you and Elegy/Jetsquirrel. No one besides you two has asked me a single question since day 2 started, but you've taken on this whole doom-and-gloom persona like you're trying to kill the town's spirit by wailing out a few MCR numbers, while Jetsquirrel is spinning so much bullshit I'm amazed none of it's oozed out of the monitor yet... and you seem to be accepting it!

On the other hand, it's merely a theory - one that holds just about as much merit as the other - but I still wonder why you're acting like it's the end of the god damn world and why Jet somehow 'knew' Otto wasn't scum and decided not to say a word about it yesterday. Hell, I wonder how he even expects me to buy such drivel.

As an aside, I also find it highly, highly amusing that Jetsquirrel claims he's never been in a game with me, despite the fact that I was the mafioso who had him lynched in the death he's referring to. One funny selective memory you got thar. I will admit I know from same that game that Jetsquirrel can be made to look scummy just by pointing at him and letting the town do your work for you, but still... that's still an awful lot of bullshit. 

3) You can still be scum. You simply weren't his buddy, which has been made abundantly clear to me.

As an added bonus to this post, I'm going to point out Jetsquirrel's bullshit. Edit's are in bolded orange:

I also thought about azure being scum, his attack and defense seems to be just too good.....
My 'attack' killed a freakin' townie, and all I've had to really 'defend' against is Mindmaker's incessant crying about the Ottofar lynch. I'm not exactly a mafia genius, dude. Or perhaps you think Otto's death is a good thing? I'd really like to hear why, personally.

Like someone is actually giving him stuff to argument about, which he himself could not think off. But i have never ( i think) seen or red a game where azure has played.
God dammit, stop being a tard. I got you lynched in the last Beginner's Mafia game after you kept editing your posts and refusing to answer a single one of my - or anyone elses - questions (instead responding with the most asinine one-liners you could think of). Even Bayer commented that he didn't think I was scum, and you think I can't argue for myself? Get the hell up outta my face, son; you got nuthin'.

I find this vote also suspicous, there is no evidence backing that ottofar was SCUM at all. Because at some point there were 3 options for him,
1. He could defend himself makin him look even scummier If he'd defended himself, he'd have looked less scummy.
If he had answers to our arguments that went beyond 'whatever', he'd still be alive. Also, not once in day one did you deign to mention this; all you said was 'there's too many lynches on Otto that aren't needed, so I'm gonna sit this one out', which roughly translates - to me, at least - into 'I don't want it to look like I lynched a townie so I'm gonna go sit on the fence and pretend I knew Otto was town all along in day 2, despite the fact that - if I had wanted to save him - I could have put my vote on soneone else along with Mindmaker and done exactly that'. I can smell the bullshit from here, and I'm in Dundee. =/
2. He could blame someone else, which would lead to a discussion about diverting attention to a other player to make himself look less scummy
No, it wouldn't. If he had legit reasons for pointing at someone else, they would have been taken into due consideration. Don't you dare think to presume how I or anyone else will react to anything and try to use it as evidence. It means nothing.
3. He could do nothing,
Which is what he did, and it got him lynched; who'd have thunk it? Whereas, if he'd have fought against it instead of ignoring everyone, he may have persuaded someone. It did not make him look like town. At all.

<I don't care about the Flintus bit; it doesn't pertain to Jet's bullshit claim that he knew Otto was town>

Because i knew he was a townie, he acted like me when he broke. Town does not sit on its ass and allow itself to be attacked! God dammit, why would town allow everyone else to waste a valuable lynch on them? Why wouldn't they struggle against it? Why wouldn't they fight to make sure the scum got lynched and not them, like they're supposed to? What kind of townie are you, to even suggest thatwe should all sit here and twidle our thumbs the moment someone puts a vote on us? >.> He got pinned down by both scum and town, and struggling would seem even more scummy. No. It. Wouldn't! see first post of this thing

Finally - Mindmaker, I'll reiterate my questions for you and add a few more:

Why do you think votes are useless in scumhunting?
Why didn't you try to save Ottofar the first night, if you were so damn sure he wasn't scum?
Also: What kind of town are you, to clean ignore a question simply because the guy who asked it hasn't answered yours? I mean seriously, you're trying to use playground logic in this game? 'He didn't answer my question, so I'm not answering his, nyeh nyeh nyeh'? Jesus, you even commented that you don't much care if this makes you look scummy! Why not? Do you think yourself that much above suspicion?
Also also: Why do you keep acting like you were the only person that gave Otto a chance? The only person to question his scumminess? If you really do think you were the only one who thought he might not be scum, then why the hell did you think I kept asking him questions, even after be effectively told me to stop doing so and just lynch him? If I was so certain he was scum, wouldn't I have just put my vote on him and ignored him? Stop trying to pretend you were the only person who so much as suspected he was town. I gave him every chance to change my mind.

Jetsquirrel, your turn.

Why didn't you try to save Ottofar the first night either?
If you were also so cocksure he was town, why didn't you say anything to even so much as discourage the lynch?

EAT WALL OF TEEEEEEEEEEEEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXT!!! Have fun with that, guys.

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

ragnarok97071: {0}
Flintus10: {0}
Mindmaker: {0}
Jetsquirrel: {0}
Spade: {0}
Azure Sepulchre: {0}
Murphy: {0}

Not Voting: Everybody

Day 2 ends Wednesday 11/3 11 PM EST

[Flintus10]

Mindmaker I believe answered all three of your questions in my post.

I think Ottofar flipping town sucks because
1. we lynched a townie obviously
2. And he just sat there whimpering and let us do it.

As for who I suspect and what I think your role is in all this well that is also answered. (did you even read it?)

But to elaborate a bit more if you are not town then I think it will be either Azure/Lurker or Jet/lurker but I have nothing on azure except that his initial attack on elegy/Jet did not look too much like a bluff to me.

as for elegy/Jet you need to post more actual content. you can ask questions obviously but you need to start looking through peoples quotes analysing them ect ect.

[Flintus10]

SPADE You are online now and you are my second suspect because of the active lurking read over some posts analyse them and tell us who you think is suspicious!

[Azure Sepulchre]

But to elaborate a bit more if you are not town then I think it will be either Azure/Lurker or Jet/lurker but I have nothing on azure except that his initial attack on elegy/Jet did not look too much like a bluff to me.

That was rather the point. =/ I assume you're referring to something more specific, though, so please elaborate. You're right about the lurkers, though, but there's another one a good deal worse than Spade.

Ragnarok. Post and post properly, because this isn't moving unless I'm given a damn good reason. And no, I won't ask you any questions or tell you what to post. By this stage, you should be able to draw your own conclusions and ask your own questions. I can't be bothered to give any concessions to a blatant lurker.

Dammit, scum; why didn't you kill Spade or ragnarok? Kamina actually played, for Christ sake... >.>

[Murphy]

Jetsquirrel, your turn. Why didn't you try to save Ottofar the first night either?

He did remove his vote though. I only managed to get a very vague answer on what was the reason of that, something about Ottofar being broken.
But on day 2 he suddenly says he unvoted because

i knew he was a townie, he acted like me when he broke.

Well, Jetsquirrel, you've seen Otto act like you did sometime ago and, based on that, concluded that he's a townie.
1) Why that? People are different, so this was barely a reason to be sure about his identity.
2) If you were so sure he was a townie, why didn't you post your thoughts before Day 1 had ended? This is uncooperative.

[webadict]

I think Azure Sepulchre is the only one that answered my question. Does anyone else wish for the Town to succeed?

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

ragnarok97071: {1} Azure Sepulchre
Flintus10: {0}
Mindmaker: {0}
Jetsquirrel: {0}
Spade: {0}
Azure Sepulchre: {0}
Murphy: {0}

Not Voting: Everybody but Azure Sepulchre

Day 2 ends Wednesday 11/3 11 PM EST

Spade and ragnarok97071 have been prodded.

Note: If someone has not posted for some time (Longer than 36 hours, less strict over weekends), you may request a prod.  I can't guarantee I'll notice who is posting and who isn't, but if one is requested, I'll go back and see when that player's last post is.

[Mindmaker]

Why didn't you try to save Ottofar the first night, if you were so damn sure he wasn't scum?

Are you kidding me?
What the hell was I trying to do all day long?
I ceartainly did deliver a lot of theories, asked a lot of questions and gave reasons, why the whole thing with Ottofar being scum was rubbish.
You really can't blame me, that the only people responding to this posts were the ones, which I directly adressed.
How am I supposed to save someone, who has 3+ votes on him, alone?
All I can do is trying to see the situation from another angle, from my angle, to be exact.
If nobody does express interest to the walls of text I wrote, how should I know they're not sharing you beliefs?

Why do you think votes are useless in scumhunting?

If you vote, without providing a good reason, its useless. People will not care, and even find you suspicious.
If you vote, provide a good reason, but other peple simply ignore you, it's still useless.
A townie is not a one-man-army, you know?

Also: What kind of town are you, to clean ignore a question simply because the guy who asked it hasn't answered yours? I mean seriously, you're trying to use playground logic in this game? 'He didn't answer my question, so I'm not answering his, nyeh nyeh nyeh'? Jesus, you even commented that you don't much care if this makes you look scummy! Why not? Do you think yourself that much above suspicion?

Your pitiful attempt to ridicule me is noted, but ignored.

At the first glance it looked like he tried to overrun me with accusations, hoping that I would forget any of the questions I had asked.
However I have to admit, that the answers are there, even if they are all extremly narrow minded.
Sorry about that, Flintus.

I'm not above suspicion.
I was angry, that's all.

Also also: Why do you keep acting like you were the only person that gave Otto a chance? The only person to question his scumminess? If you really do think you were the only one who thought he might not be scum, then why the hell did you think I kept asking him questions, even after be effectively told me to stop doing so and just lynch him?
If I was so certain he was scum, wouldn't I have just put my vote on him and ignored him? Stop trying to pretend you were the only person who so much as suspected he was town. I gave him every chance to change my mind.

Don't ask questions, where you already know the answer.
I doubt you haven't looked at it from a scum point of view.

If you have two people, voting on somehow, who in the end turns out to be town, then those two players will most likely become the new prime suspects.
However if you manage to convince other players, to follow you example, the blame is shared and you've made yourself more that enough room to argue, who the "real" scum is.
So yes, this is another possible use of further questioning.

Mindmaker Do you have any justified reason to think Otto was at least a likely town player?

It's actually quite simple.
Why would a member of the mafia act so dumb, to get himself lynched on day one.
You can answer me this, Azure.

What tactic did he employ?
How was it supposed to gain him anything?

And I never was sure he was, in fact, a townie. I gave that possibility about 70%. So yeah, it was a gamble.
The way you both behaved, only reinforced me in my beliefs.

And if you are indeed town then who are your prime suspects?

Well for once you and Azure, for reasons already posted and now seeing you working together against me. Why is no one else bothered by me if I'm so obviously scum?

Then Jetsquirrel. Altough I think that Elegy was just being childish at the beginning, I don't see why Jetsquirrel is defending him (even after I questioned his answer regarding the appraisal of the way Elegy played).

Afterwards Ragnarok. There is a fifty-fifty chance he could be on either side.

Spade/Murphy. No idea, there isn't enough substance to guess anything. If they could post some more, adressing the current situation, I could tell you more.

[Jetsquirrel]

Then Jetsquirrel. Altough I think that Elegy was just being childish at the beginning, I don't see why Jetsquirrel is defending him (even after I questioned his answer regarding the appraisal of the way Elegy played).

Fuck elegy man, IM NOT HIM. I'm a other being i got a different brain a other way of thinking. See this is the minus of getting replaced because your precessor may have fucked up everything.