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[Flintus10]

Okay, well, I don't have much to contribute, it seems like Azure's handling all of that. D:
We need to start applying a little more pressure before the day ends, so Flintus, prove to us that you're not scum. You have a fairly strong argument against you and Azure's on your ass. Why should the rest of us ignore this?

You said this so please explain why you think I might be scum. If you don't have a reason I can only assume you were planning to jump on Azure's vote.

Your going to cost town the game by voting for me for no reason that I can see apart from ONE conversation with Spade on day freaking one.

I love this argument. It sounds so much like a threat from scum. Kamina's used it, too, I believe. Heh.

Isn't that the same argument Jet tried to use? It got people to vote for him. Made him sound like scum by saying it. I'm hoping you're not as terrible a townie as he was by using the same defense and, given that, it could be you're trying to sound like Jet to make us hesitant to vote for you which wouldn't be an implausible move.

Jet was definetely the worst town player ever but if we remember correctly he was correct in saying that voting for him would hurt the town so you can't really hold it against him. The reasons everybody suspected Jet were the blatant lies and constantly changing opinions of his.

To refresh my memory, what wrote Murphy out of the picture on this day? I haven't seen much activity from him, so he either has nothing to contribute or is trying to lie low to avoid attention that could potentially threaten him should he be scum.

I am fairly certain that it is because most of Kamina's theory revolved around a Jet/Murphy team and that was basically the basis of the argument. So naturally when Jet flipped town the argument went away.

[Murphy]

Looking for more towntells, I've re-read the topic and it turns out that NKing Kamina didn't really match what a scum-Azure would or should do in my opinion, seeing as during day one Kamina was his next FoS. And he would not kill Mindmaker night two because this left him with no one to blame again.

Anyway, based on considering Kamina and Azure town, I must conclude that Native and Flintus are mafia. Even though I feel uneasy about having to accuse someone by just listing all living players and excluding those who I think are town, it is probably more effective than lynching the most suspicious person newbie-style.

What I've read is that mafia players are better off in the middle - not being too suspicious, to avoid lynch, and not being too clean, to avoid questions like "why are you not being nkd".

So the scenario is as follows:
Day one:
Ragnarok does a good job at looking like an uncaring townie - not too suspicious, but not clean either (remember him creating a bandwagon right in the beginning?)
Flintus gives a FoS to Ragnarok. Distancing.
Also does a good job in starting the whole Ottofar thing.

Day two:
Ragnarok goes lurking completely. No problem since there's still the second scum to make decisions during the night.
And Flintus goes "scumhunting" on Mindmaker.

Day three:
Flintus tries to press issues against me. Justified in that I didn't post too much in past three days, but I'd like to remind you that DF 31.17 has come out.
Native... dunno.

What else...
It is interesting that Mindmaker voted Azure and immediately after that Vector congratulated the town on that the game is looking better. Or was it because the IC, too, thought me and Jet scum?
I may still change my mind, maybe to Azure-Native being the scumteam. But I won't do so unless there's a solid Flintus towntell.

[Flintus10]

It is interesting that Mindmaker voted Azure and immediately after that Vector congratulated the town on that the game is looking better. Or was it because the IC, too, thought me and Jet scum?
I may still change my mind, maybe to Azure-Native being the scumteam. But I won't do so unless there's a solid Flintus towntell.

I am pretty sure Vector wouldn't say something like that to give away anything so it is probably useless. And you say Flintus gives a solid towntell as you expect me to just jump up and say something that makes me a guranteed town. Have you actually read through the entire thread and looked for towntells from me or are you just expecting me to spontaniously come up with one?

Looking for more towntells, I've re-read the topic and it turns out that NKing Kamina didn't really match what a scum-Azure would or should do in my opinion, seeing as during day one Kamina was his next FoS. And he would not kill Mindmaker night two because this left him with no one to blame again.

It's a fair point but can I just ask if both those night-kills not benifiting Azure absolves him from suspicion can I ask how you think they would have benifited me or Native/Ragnarok?

What I've read is that mafia players are better off in the middle - not being too suspicious, to avoid lynch, and not being too clean, to avoid questions like "why are you not being nkd".

So the scenario is as follows:
Day one:

Ragnarok does a good job at looking like an uncaring townie - not too suspicious, but not clean either (remember him creating a bandwagon right in the beginning?)
Flintus gives a FoS to Ragnarok. Distancing.
Also does a good job in starting the whole Ottofar thing.

Wow you jump on the bandwagon at the end and now your saying I am scummy for placing the first vote. And what the hell do you mean did a good job, all I did was call Ottofar out on one tell and then he dug his own grave. YOu can't tell me I predicted the whole thing to go that why, I mean Azure hadn't even revealed his little gambit when I voted Ottofar.

Day two:
Ragnarok goes lurking completely. No problem since there's still the second scum to make decisions during the night.
And Flintus goes "scumhunting" on Mindmaker.

How does going for mind seem suspicious?

I am going to wait untill Azure posts next before I make up my mind on who is scum.

[Azure Sepulchre]

Wow you backed right off, well you said you'd provide us with the answer why later so that's cool.

My explanation is fairly simple; I just don't trust Kamina enough. Or anyone other than Murphy at the moment, really, and even him only a little more than the rest of you. Reading back through the thread, I can't get over how differently Kamina appears to have behaved when you compare day 1 to day 2. As such, since it seems this game is going to go into a two-way tie before the end, I don't want to give him the final vote.

After all, if he and his scumbuddy were online at the time and he placed his final vote on a townie, they could both shorten and - assuming none of us were online at the time to prevent this - Toaster would have no choice but to bring on the night instantly rather than at the allotted time.

I'm not sure whether or not it is permissable to use counter-shortens in this game, so I'm being cautious. I still suspect you the most, Flintus, but I don't want to risk a last-minute scum win. Hrm; perhaps I've played too much IRC Mafia. This kind of stuff happens all the time in that...

I have to rethink everything as while I don't think Azure is quite the mafia god we have made him out to be anymore I still don't think he is scum. Though that could change after looking back.

I never claimed to be, nor was I ever such a thing in the first. If you allow your own presumptions to run away with you, I can hardly be blamed.

Sorry for asking so often but I assumed you had a reason other than not suspecting other people. It's not easy to defend myself just based on your process of elimination

The process of elimination can work quite well, and good scum have a knack for having an explanation for everything. It's nice to sometimes have an argument that can't be defeated by twisting meanings or outright lying.

I guess it could sound like that but after playing for all this time I'd really rather not lose without getting a single scum.

Neither would I. Hence the reason I wish to lynch you.

You have been very active and I am grateful for that (1) but here you are basically saying you have almost given up and don't really care about the game anymore (2). I suppose it is good to stick with your vote rather than doing a whole lot and getting nowhere but your case against me isn't that strong (3) and as stated you barely care anymore which is why it is annoying that everyone will still hang of your every word >_> (4).

1) You shouldn't have to be grateful. Ever. None of us should have had to struggle just to stay even semi-active. It's like you're thanking me for not being lazy.

2) That hasn't happened just yet. I've invested enough time into this game to care about the outcome, but that doesn't mean I want to win so badly I'll refuse to lynch until I'm sure. We're just gonna get bogged down in meaningless discussion, endless reiteration of our intended targets and switch our votes on flights of fancy unless we vote quite soon. I'd rather not hang around to see such a fun game degenerate into something like that.

3) We thought we were certain on Otto. We weren't. We thought we were certain on Jet. Again, we weren't. Ergo, explain to me how arguing a matter to death has solved the town's problems thus far. Also, out of curiosity, whom do you propose we lynch? Other than a few soft attacks on me, you haven't seriously FoS'ed a single player today. Hell, you don't even seem to have a vote in mind. Unless you're planning to vote for me, the guy you keep saying most likely isn't scum? An OMGUS; that'll sure help your argument on day 3. >.>

4) Like I said, I'm not even sure why in the hell anyone is putting more stock into what I say than anyone else. Apparently I haven't scumslipped, (or at least haven't behaved stupidly) but even then I should still be treated as just another townie. Yeah, I'm a power role, but an impotent one. It confers no advantage, and gives my word no extra sway. I can still be as wrong as anyone else, as proven with Otto. Could be wrong about you, too, but I don't really mind. This game had a good life, apparently, and I had quite a bit of fun. It's all good.

Well I originally said I didn't really see it as a massive tell or anything but you defended yourself and I was just pointing out your defense really didn't prove anything.

I was pointing out that you don't have to be the first person on a vote to be instigator. Everyone on a vote is responsible, although I will admit that the first person to vote unfairly recieves either the praise or scorn of the other players, depending on what flipped. The fact that you appear to be telling me off for not being quick on the draw sounds awfully like you're telling me I should stop thinking through my final vote and should just throw it wherever I may.

How the hell am I supposed to know what your thinking? Saying something like that and then not following up on it? For all I know your lying now and your original plan was to wait for someone to take your bait so that you could follow up on them and since no-one did you saw Mind as another easy target instead.

Once again, your own fault for building up an exaggerated impression of me.

Oh, and... err... really, now? Mind? An easy target? Pfft. XD Did you read day 2 at all? Hahahahahaa...

And don't say that it is not possible because remember I do not know what you are thinking and neither does everyone else so saying something like that is a massive WIFOM and if it isn't a scum-tell then at the very least it wasn't helpful to town. This theory would make alot of sense as you immediately jumped on two other targets when Kamina arrived and alot of suspicion was thrown on them, of course I doubt you would make such an obvious slip as you seem far better than that. But if it was a slip it was about the only one.

You're talking like WIFOM isn't inevitable in any given game of Mafia. In truth, every possible argument contains at least a bit of WIFOM. Everything from a cop claiming a guilty to a fool demanding a lynch. It can't be avoided, so we get on with it - we build up ideas of the personalities and character of each player as a game goes on, and declare what is a town or scum tell based on what they show us. If our impressions of someone turn out to be wrong, then you roll with it and keep looking. So stop crying that I'm not the person you thought I was and blaming me for misleading you; it's starting to get creepy and more than a bit annoying.

Yet when I do the same thing you base your entire suspicion of me around it.

...gah. *facepalm*

Didn't you just complain not to long ago - hell, in the same post - that you were upset with me going by a 'process of elimination'?

I agree that we are not looking at you from a good perspective as anything that may be a slip I kinow at least I am waving it off as "Ah bugger it Azure is too good to make a mistake like that."

Excellent. We're agreed, then; I'm not God.

Also I agree that it is highly unlikely that both mafia players are lurkers as this is a beginner game and I assume their IC would try to keep them active so I will go ahead and give Bayer some credit and say he'd be a good enough IC to keep one of them active. Cause if he encouraged them both to lurk then that is a massive dick-move.

...from what I can gather of Bayer, if he could keep both players active, he would. He doesn't come across as an under-handed sort of person, and seems as irritated as everyone else at the amount of lurkers on this forum. I get the impression that - if both Spade and ragnarok were the scum - Bayer would've asked Toaster to replace them ages ago.

Also Murphy has quietened down a bit now that nobody is focusing on him.

HAH! Like you've never been quiet in this game before. XD

I'm gonna make my vote in about 5 hours, since I'll be going to bed then. Also, nice defense post, Native. Very subtle.

[Azure Sepulchre]

Also, I'm pretty sure Vector was just congratulating us on our sudden decisive behaviour and flurry of activity than anything else. If you wanna blame me for it, though... well, whatever. Enjoy that wine cask.

[NativeForeigner]

You said this so please explain why you think I might be scum. If you don't have a reason I can only assume you were planning to jump on Azure's vote.

Earlier this day, I suspected you because you were rather inactive when we were all scumhunting. That coupled with Azure's assaults led me to FOS you to try to get a few answers out of you so we could move on and I could decide whether or not I should vote for you. Your defenses have been fairly solid and I probably won't vote for you, but I haven't written you off as town either.

Jet was definetely the worst town player ever but if we remember correctly he was correct in saying that voting for him would hurt the town so you can't really hold it against him. The reasons everybody suspected Jet were the blatant lies and constantly changing opinions of his.

If you're town, you really shouldn't be imitating much at all Jet at this point of the game.

I am fairly certain that it is because most of Kamina's theory revolved around a Jet/Murphy team and that was basically the basis of the argument. So naturally when Jet flipped town the argument went away.

Okay, thanks.

Murphy, other than your process of elimination, what other evidence do you have against me and why am I your vote over Flintus? It seems you have more on Flintus than you do on me. In fact, it only seems that the only thing you have against me is the fact that

Ragnarok does a good job at looking like an uncaring townie - not too suspicious, but not clean either (remember him creating a bandwagon right in the beginning?)

and Ragnarok's apparent lurking, which I can't honestly defend because I'm not Ragnarok.

Also, nice defense post, Native. Very subtle.

Care to explain?

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

NativeForeigner: {1} Murphy
Flintus10: {0}
KaminaSquirtle: {0}
Azure Sepulchre: {0}
Murphy: {0}

Not Voting: NativeForeigner, Flintus10, KaminaSquirtle, Azure Sepulchre

Day 3 ends Monday, 11/15 at 11 PM EST, in 8 1/2 hours from this post.

[Azure Sepulchre]

...hrm. I want my vote on Native. I apologise, Native, but as Murphy is the closest I can see to being fellow town, I can't split my vote from his if I want any chance to win. I still encourage you to switch to either Flintus or Kamina, Murphy, but if you're set on Native then I have little choice in the matter.

Last post I can make before day ends. If I'm wrong, sorry, guys.

Native: In your last post previous to mine, I got the impression you were supporting Flintus for no particular reason - scumbuddy or not, still the impression I got. Perhaps you don't have anything on him, but you'll have to make your final decision soon. We're fast running out of time, here.

[Murphy]

Flintus
My scenario does not strive to prove you suspicious. I only provided it to see if it contradicts badly with common sense or otherwise seems implausible. Why I consider you scum is not because of you being suspicious (you aren't in fact), but because I consider Azure and Kamina town.

And yes, I looked through the entire thread yesterday but could not find anything that could assure me of you being town like what I found about Kamina.

Native
Same goes for you I think.
Sorry, hafta go now.

[NativeForeigner]

Murphy: You seem to get real dodgy when it comes to defending your stance against me.

Native
Same goes for you I think.

You think? You're really going to pull an "I think" when we're in LYLO. I really would like to know what evidence, if any, it is you have against me. It seems you have more against Flintus, so why not vote him? I think there might be a Flintus/Murphy scumteam going on. It certainly seems like it. You're distancing yourself from him but, rather than vote for the one you're more sure about, you vote for me instead, the only other even plausible (according to your theory) scum.

You're starting to sound really sketchy, Murphy. You're not making much sense and you're not explaining it either.

[KaminaSquirtle]

Sorry for asking so often but I assumed you had a reason other than not suspecting other people. It's not easy to defend myself just based on your process of elimination

The process of elimination can work quite well, and good scum have a knack for having an explanation for everything. It's nice to sometimes have an argument that can't be defeated by twisting meanings or outright lying.

I don't like this process of elimination of yours, Azure.  The only way it works is if you can be sure someone is town.
You can't be sure.  I don't like how you 'know' all these things.

Wow you backed right off, well you said you'd provide us with the answer why later so that's cool.

My explanation is fairly simple; I just don't trust Kamina enough. Or anyone other than Murphy at the moment, really, and even him only a little more than the rest of you. Reading back through the thread, I can't get over how differently Kamina appears to have behaved when you compare day 1 to day 2. As such, since it seems this game is going to go into a two-way tie before the end, I don't want to give him the final vote.

That is a difference in experience.  Being dead, I thought about many things.  I got better.  Now I'm even better, mostly from my experience in Paranormal.  When I look that far back in the thread, I end up FACEPALMING.

...hrm. I want my vote on Native. I apologise, Native, but as Murphy is the closest I can see to being fellow town, I can't split my vote from his if I want any chance to win. I still encourage you to switch to either Flintus or Kamina, Murphy, but if you're set on Native then I have little choice in the matter.

I don't like this.  I understand your argument, but it seems entirely too possible that you are scum, and decided to vote a townie after Murphy did and then used this argument to force a lynch of a townie.  We can't disagree because then you would accuse us of being scum who just want to pull off aforementioned gambit.
Everything seems to hinge on Murphy being assured town.  Nothing is sure in mafia.  Yet you seem way too sure of Murphy being town.  I may have believed you had you claimed cop, but you've claimed doc, so you have no sure evidence.
Unless you're scum.

Last post I can make before day ends. If I'm wrong, sorry, guys.

And this seals the deal.  If we don't vote who we want him to vote, WE LOSE THE GAME.  You may actually need to go to bed, but this still doesn't sit right with me.
I'm sorry but those tactics are downright scummy.
It seems to me like you're trying to force us into the lynch you want, Azure.

[NativeForeigner]

Well, we're  about to run out of time, so why the hell not, I'd rather we didn't lose.

Azure.

Also, shorten, please.

[KaminaSquirtle]

Azure.
Shorten.
Time to die.
Since Flintus isn't on, there's nothing you can do about it.
HAHA BITCHES!

[NativeForeigner]

<3

[KaminaSquirtle]

Good game, though.
You were a great scumbuddy, Native!