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[Zrk2]

Woah, wait a second all you "There're already a brazillion threads on this topic!" people, no, there aren't. What I want to discuss here is air pressure and how steam could be used to affect it. The game already features different densities of steam (Those different looking white squares with the different angle lines through them). Well shouldn't this be used to represent pressure? The pressure would force the steam to expand if in the open or pressureize if confined. This would make possible steam engines, but in a manner that requires skill to produce using pre 1400 technology and so not violate Toadys rule regarding the 1400 cap. This expanding steam could then move objects in a similar way to water flowing over the clothes left from your sacrifices in the areana test subjects are when you wash away the corpses and debris use your mechanized cleaning device. Yes this could make cannons possible if the steam was super pressurized to the point of being compressed into water. When the door was opened it all turns to steam in what is essentially an explosion, launchng the stones. Or pebbles if they become usable in dwarf mode. Canister shot anyone? That is my idea however I still only have basic physics so I would welcome input from more well learned players.

[TheyTarget]

I don't think toady will do this. Cause I remember something he said, about no steampunk? I think, hard to remember. But anyways, I do think it's an okay idea. To have pressurized steam. Little more realistic. Not that I'd ever use it for anything.

[Andeerz]

Yes, there are other posts about this topic:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59776.msg1343225#msg1343225
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=42344.msg777508#msg777508
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54885.msg1182238#msg1182238

But I guess there aren't a lot, and this thread would offer an opportunity to start the discussion fresh...

The first link listed could really use some expanding upon, since it's an idea with potential (not saying yours isn't, Zrk2!) and doesn't have much useful discussion as of yet.

The third one has some ideas about steam and steam power in the game, though it derails considerably with a lot of people spouting misconceptions about technological development and implementation throughout history without much to back up their dubious claims (though some claims are valid)...  Long story short: steam power in the middle ages was virtually absent.  A primitive steam engine was developed in Roman times, but it was a novelty and there wasn't the motivation (for whatever reason) to expand upon the technology and implement it.

But, to build off of the OP...

A loose simulation of air pressure I think would ideally be an excellent addition to DF and could set the foundations for ventilation and wind and movement of gaseous crap like steam.  Yeah, there would likely be a considerable demand from the CPU depending on how it is modeled, but I think that that can be tackled with streamlined programming and/or abstracting out some of the physics.

I really like the idea of extending fluid logic to air pressure logic (as suggested in the first link I posted), but that would kill current computers.  I wonder what could be abstracted out?

[teloft]

In roman time, pressure was used for mining. 

[Andeerz]

Neet!  What's the source?  I know I've read about that before, too!

EDIT: But I thought it was using the expansion of water-soaked wood, not air pressure.

[irmo]

In roman time, pressure was used for mining. 

That doesn't make sense. If you pour water into the tunnel the air will just float to the top. And if it didn't, the pressure you'd achieve would still only be the height of the water column * density of water. The Romans did use hydraulic mining (diverting or damming streams to wash soil and gravel away to get to the bedrock) but it doesn't cause the hillside to explode like you've described.

[Andeerz]

Here's a good article on Roman mining and techniques, including a nice section on the use of water-soaked wooden wedges to crack open rocks, as well as ventilation which would probably be better for another thread...

http://www.unc.edu/~duncan/personal/roman_mining/deep-vein_mining.htm

[Farthing]

It would be really cool to at least try some iterations of a df with more fluids and realistic pressure, even at the cost of frame rates.

With regards to "steam power" and the 1400s tech cap, this is one of those areas that dances around the line. What you are suggesting is true-to-life pressure. Since it is only the physical properties, with no workshops that directly make use of them, it isn't really tech from past the 1400s. Simultaneously, it would allow players that wish to take the time to build large-scale steam works. In this respect, it is similar to many of the arguments I've heard for electricity.
While I like the idea, the implementation of these would take large amounts of time away from development of other fun, more fantasy-central ideas. Keep in mind that Dwarf Fortress is realistic in a large number of ways, but is meant to be a fantasy sim, and that is probably one of the reasons for the 1400s tech cap. It is quite possible that another one is so that more complex chemical and physical properties (such as electricity and pressure) don't have to be implemented.

To summarize my opinion, if it's something the great and powerful Toady One would want to do, I'm for it. If it isn't then we should probably brainstorm in other areas.

[Andeerz]

Yeah... what Farthing said.

It would be nice for the physics to be there, but given the technological time frame of the game, it wouldn't really be feasible.  Steam power was known about and steam engines were made IRL throughout the medieval era, but they were not practical and were novelties.  I think the answer to why it wasn't really ever developed and used during the time would probably be found in the factors that led to the industrial revolution (which I should read more about, to be sure!).  So, basically, even if the physics and ability to make steam powered stuff were in the game, A: it would be too advanced to be acceptable to Toady and/or B: you would be able to build whatever steam contraption, but it would be ridiculously impractical given the techs available to you and wouldn't add much to the game in that way (other than a really neat megaproject... so this wouldn't be a concern for those people who make them). 

To compare it with what I think happened IRL, it wasn't so much that steam power couldn't be implemented or wasn't known about; I think that given the quality of materials and stuff that could be made economically and feasibly throughout the medieval era and given the available man power, perhaps the motivation for developing the concept of steam power wasn't there.  But that's speculation on my part and really needs to be looked into further.

Funny how the first practical implementation of steam power (according to wikipedia) was for mining (getting water out of a mine)!!!

[jei]

In roman time, pressure was used for mining. 

That doesn't make sense. If you pour water into the tunnel the air will just float to the top. And if it didn't, the pressure you'd achieve would still only be the height of the water column * density of water. The Romans did use hydraulic mining (diverting or damming streams to wash soil and gravel away to get to the bedrock) but it doesn't cause the hillside to explode like you've described.

I blame it on the education system's decline. We really have a bad future ahead of us, if people now think this is realistic.

[Mel_Vixen]

Well depending on how high the pressure is you can crack stones as in the picture. See a Rock-formation isnt a homogeneous mass, it features impuritys, cracks, rifts etc. which form weak-spots. Under high pressures these cracks and rifts can widen and allow new cracks to form thus breaking the stone apart for easyer mining. Similiar technics are used nowadays for Geothermal Powerplants (so water can flow mre freely through the hot rock-formations) though they use pumps to create realy high preasures. 

[eerr]

In roman time, pressure was used for mining. 

That doesn't make sense. If you pour water into the tunnel the air will just float to the top. And if it didn't, the pressure you'd achieve would still only be the height of the water column * density of water. The Romans did use hydraulic mining (diverting or damming streams to wash soil and gravel away to get to the bedrock) but it doesn't cause the hillside to explode like you've described.

I blame it on the education system's decline. We really have a bad future ahead of us, if people now think this is realistic.

You know, literally exploding is kind of an exaggeration?

This looks like very solid water-pressure mechanics to me.

[thijser]

If you did what was shown on the picture you would probably end up with a large landslide(sedimentary), a large underwater minning system (not enough pressure/not deep enough), a full blown explosion (very high minning system (remember that if you have a 3 km high mountain and channel to sea level you are dealing with 300 bar. Combined with a crack this will cause the system to explode)) or a slow weaking of all the stone because of micro cave-ins and/or breaking down because of the water freezing. Of course if magma is involved you will get steam if you make something like this and close of the entrance and then wait till all the water has become steam you will be dealing with some 1000 bar. Remember that 1 bar means that each square centimeter of exposed surface is able to lift 1 kg up!!! The only problem is that it states that the air will cause the explosion in reality the water causes the explosion.

Any way pressure wouldprobably grind our fps to a hold. And I doubt we will gain much from it. Perhaps in the future when our computers are more powerfull then we could add something like this(remember computer power still doubles about once every 18 months).

[Zrk2]

Ok, I see your point. Steam power was not used in the era aimed at for DF but neither was magma. I think the logic that is used to allow us to manipulate magma through pumps could be used to justify the implementation of steam pressure (NOT POWER). Also to reduce the framerate impact couldn't Toady just leave all air as a basic pressure and steam or other gasses that appear could be pressurized beyond that point. What that would mean to implement is that rather like water air would have a basic pressure. However it would not move because that would for the most part serve no purpose unless it was used to rewrite the way windmills work. But the gasses released into the air could have different pressures if confined and having more inserted into that space.

[Zrk2]

Ok, my last poat got cut off midway through. The basic idea in it was that all "air" tiles should have a basic pressure andsteam or other gasses if confined should be able to develop higher pressure as more gas is insertedd into a confined area. Then as the door or whatnot is opened it should erupt explosively through the aperture. Also moving gasses should be able to move items much as water does. This effect should also take into account the weight of said items.