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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 15461178 times)

pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166125 on: January 16, 2025, 06:40:09 pm »

Whenever I hear the words 'populism' I think of Mussolini first, then Rome, then Hitler.

Do you think people in Rome felt this way about stuff like their elections, or bread and circuses?
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wobbly

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166126 on: January 20, 2025, 09:22:13 am »

Was fascism considered bad when people like Mussolini came to power? Or did the ideology get its bad reputation after these people took power. I'm not sure of the history of the word.
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Grim Portent

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166127 on: January 20, 2025, 11:34:51 am »

Was fascism considered bad when people like Mussolini came to power? Or did the ideology get its bad reputation after these people took power. I'm not sure of the history of the word.

Depended on who you asked really. Much like Communism/Socialism/Anarchism at the time, there was a broad movement of support for it and a broad one against it in most Western countries. Fascism was usually considered less bad than Communism/Socialism/Anarchism by most governments of the time though, even if they didn't support it in itself.

Fascism generally rocks the boat less for the powerful establishment, while Leftist movements generally wanted to overturn and completely rewrite the fundamental underpinnings of society that enabled the establishment, so various established groups (judicial, governmental, church and corporate for example) had a vaguely positive view on Fascism because the other side wanted to make them obsolete in one way or another.
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166128 on: January 20, 2025, 11:46:33 am »

The West only started to hate Facism when it started to send armies to invade other countries, and even then, not right away.

Hitler was by most accounts a very charismatic individual, and most politicians who met him left those meetings with an impression of the guy being a man of peace who was simply righting “a few” historical wrongs.

This played a big role in why the countries thought that Appeasement was good foreign policy.

Not all politicians felt this way though. Churchill had read Mein Kampf and hated the man, yet he was never a popular politician until Hitler disgraced the previous establishment and invaded Poland.

The thing you’ve gotta understand about the West, is that it doesn’t care too much about the personal lives of citizens in foreign countries. They only care about the following criteria: are they a good trade partner? Are they forcing us to accept their refugees? Are they a military threat to us?

Saudi Arabia is YNN, so they get a pass for their human rights violations.
Syria is NYN so the news was constantly criticizing Assad.

That’s all it is sadly. If you expect non-human entities like countries to have something resembling morality, you will be disappointed. It’s self-interest all the way down…
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166129 on: January 20, 2025, 01:27:52 pm »

Was fascism considered bad when people like Mussolini came to power? Or did the ideology get its bad reputation after these people took power. I'm not sure of the history of the word.
Evolving process I guess. Fascism had its critics and supporters even when it was just getting started, and it varied from country to country. Americans, French, British, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Russians all looked at fascism through different lenses before, during and after the war

Outside of actual fascists and fascist sympathisers, I know in the UK you had funny stuff like Chamberlain egregiously underestimating Hitler's territorial ambitions despite Hitler opening mein kampf with his plan to unify Germany and then acquire more land, which Churchill criticised him for. But then when it came to Mussolini, the UK government took the view that he could be a reasonable partner and counterweight to Germany, and generally due to UK diplomatic brilliance the UK government managed to cock literally everything up. I remember reading something which summed up British, French and American attempts to maintain peace vis a vis diplomacy with Japan, Italy and the Eastern European countries. France pursued a policy of containment, which was happily dislocated by British diplomacy. The British, seeking to deter Japan, Italy or Germany from even embarking on an imperial adventure, then had their policy of deterrence happily dislocated by the USA. The allies really oof'd one another a lot -_-

But you can get some useful gauges to tell how ppl viewed fascism, even before the war. Stuff like the Spanish civil war drew in bucket loads of volunteers who were making their way to Spain for the express purpose of fighting against/for fascism. British popular opposition to fascism started growing at the same time as British fascism popularity also started growing, as public violence in the street alienated the public whilst attracting more die hard fanatics. The British Union of Fascists never got that many members but they were over-represented amongst business people, aristocrats and ex-military officers so even small in number they were a potentially dangerous and well-connected bunch, and the security agency MI5 was monitoring them on the assumption that they were a fifth column even before it was apparent that war with fascism was inevitable

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166130 on: January 20, 2025, 05:53:57 pm »

The West only started to hate Facism when it started to send armies to invade other countries, and even then, not right away.

Hitler was by most accounts a very charismatic individual, and most politicians who met him left those meetings with an impression of the guy being a man of peace who was simply righting “a few” historical wrongs.

This played a big role in why the countries thought that Appeasement was good foreign policy.

Not all politicians felt this way though. Churchill had read Mein Kampf and hated the man, yet he was never a popular politician until Hitler disgraced the previous establishment and invaded Poland.


This is a lot more complex than you make it sound. One of the big reasons that Chamberlain settled on a program of appeasement is that his attempts to build a united front against German expansion fell apart. In order to get a big enough stick to keep the Reich out of Czechoslovakia he needed both Poland and the Soviet Union on board, and both refused to cooperate if the other one was involved. Appeasement was a backup plan after the united front fell apart.

Likewise, the Fascist support in the West was a lot louder than it was big. Groups like the British Union of Fascists and the German-American Bund were tiny compared to the size of their countries and had little political power - the BUF peaked at 50,000 people by their own claims (probably quite a bit less in truth) had a few local politicians but nobody in actual Parliament before they were banned, and the GAB was even smaller and had less political power. Meanwhile the Abraham Lincoln Battalion numbered around 2500 men - once you factor in how few guys in a movement are actually going to pick up a gun and go fight as a foreign legion that indicates a huge movement - if one American communist in ten picked up a rifle (and it was nowhere near that high a percentage) it would equal the Bund.

One of the things that muddies the waters is that from September 1939 to June 22 1941 (in other words, the period when the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was in force), the Communists and the Fascists were allied, with most Communist Parties in the neutral countries arguing that the fight against Hitler was a capitalist war to mystify the proletariat. If you track down back issues of those newspapers, you can see the editorial stance change like a switch was flipped.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166131 on: January 20, 2025, 07:19:38 pm »

It became convenient for Britons to later forget that appeasement was highly popular with most of them right up to the point when Hitler’s invasion of Poland revealed the magnitude of the error. Chamberlain was widely proclaimed a masterful statesman when he came back from Munich in 1938 with his infamous piece of paper promising “peace for our time”. In a flagrant abuse of his constitutional position, George VI invited the prime minister on to the balcony of Buckingham Palace to receive the cheers of the crowds thronging the Mall. They sang Rule Britannia and For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166132 on: January 20, 2025, 08:15:58 pm »

Not giving the Czechs to Hitler would have meant war, because they didn't have enough collective force to make Hitler back down without one. Britain and France were absolutely terrified of another war, because the wounds from the last one weren't even close to healed. Between casualties and a huge drop in number of births, both countries had a million-man gap in their potential defenders compared to what they'd have had if Franz Ferdinand hadn't stopped a bullet in 1914. In retrospect, the First World War not only slew the German Empire, the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, it probably also mortally wounded the British Empire. The prospect of Round 2 absolutely terrified both countries.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166133 on: January 20, 2025, 09:23:48 pm »

Not giving the Czechs to Hitler would have meant war, because they didn't have enough collective force to make Hitler back down without one. Britain and France were absolutely terrified of another war, because the wounds from the last one weren't even close to healed. Between casualties and a huge drop in number of births, both countries had a million-man gap in their potential defenders compared to what they'd have had if Franz Ferdinand hadn't stopped a bullet in 1914. In retrospect, the First World War not only slew the German Empire, the Russian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, it probably also mortally wounded the British Empire. The prospect of Round 2 absolutely terrified both countries.
Paul F. Kennedy writes a lot about the decline of the British Empire in relative and absolute terms around this period. I recall him talking about how in the moment, there was no public or elite perception that the British Empire was irrevocably doomed to failure post WWI, and plenty causes for celebration. The timeline he sets out is:

-Post napoleonic wars, the UK is really in an extraordinary position where it has no expensive long term continental commitments. Its chief rivals of Spain and France have lost their navies. All the major powers like Prussia, Austria, Russia are still dealing with damage inflicted by France, whilst France herself is exhausted. The same navy which protected it, also becomes the tool for exerting imperial power abroad at no extra cost. This allows British merchants to gain preferential access to foreign markets overseas, even in places like South America, ostensibly under Spanish control.

-The industrial revolution kicks off in the UK, providing insane advantages for the UK economy over the rest of the world. This + the naval power + the UK's rivals still climbing out of the gutter allows for the UK to capture three quarters of the world's markets. But it stands to reason that if industrialisation could unlock the full potential of the British economy, then those countries with greater landmasses more restricted by their size like Germany, Russia and most of all - the USA, would benefit the most from those restrictions being lifted. Which inevitably is what happens

-1900s start coming around and the world is looking mighty different. Where before the British had control of 3/4s the world's markets with an obligation to defend next to none of it versus rivals who couldn't really challenge it, the British had control of 1/4 the world's markets with an obligation to defend all of it - against powers that were reaching their full industrial potential like France, Russia, Japan, Germany and USA. The Japanese destruction of the Russian navy did assuage fears somewhat, (but Canberra and Washington will later lobby for Westminster to gut the Anglo-Japanese alliance).
The requirement to defend more with less, whilst it became more and more expensive to field cutting edge war machines, inevitably meant something had to give. This leads to Britain being forced out of "splendid isolation" and their attempts to ally with the USA, Japan, and Italy - and even for the time, it stunned the German high command that the UK seirously honoured their alliances with their long time enemies/rivals France and Russia.

-By the eve of WWI, the British Empire's economy was already in a tough pinch. Lots of the British Empire's former export markets like South America were being dominated by American goods. A lot of the British Empire's own colonies were dominated by American goods. Even the British Isles were seeing UK companies outcompeted by American goods. Not just American goods too; whether German chemicals or American machines, British companies were being outcompeted by foreign companies using more modern plant and in larger scale.
Most of the world's empires adopting protectionist barriers whilst the UK still ruggedly clinged to free market ideology meant British goods were being priced out of rival European colonial empires and spheres of influence, burdening their ability to maintain the naval power that guaranteed the security of the Empire.

-This did not alarm British business elites, because for the most part they had made the transition from an industrial capitalist mindset, to a purely capitalist mindset. They did not fear American or German factories - they funded them. Any chance to outsource to cheaper labour abroad was a big W for them. London became a gigantic centre for global finance, insurance, law and banking. You get a lot of celebratory missives written by finance people huffing their own farts and gushing about how they have discovered a new form of wealth, whilst quietly deindustrialising themselves and industrialising others.

-WWI breaks out. Directly, the war traumatises the public, raises nationalism in overseas colonies through the roof (having already lost Ireland), indebts the government to JP Morgan, wipes out their wealth reserves and all the overseas investments made and lost. Indirectly, the British Empire more than any of the global powers depended on globalisation. So the world's economies being in a state of disarray also wrought ruin to the British Empire's economy.

-Post WWI it still doesn't look that bad because, yeah the British Empire is suffering, but so is everyone in the world. But shit is totally fucked, and only not obvious because the USA took the #1 spot but said "nah I'm gonna be isolationist c ya you can have the ball." UK gov becomes distinctly aware that of the Atlantic, Meditteranean, Indian and Pacific Oceans, they can afford to protect two and a half of those.
-WWII sees the UK give all of its technology, capital, gold and markets over to the USA, losing what remained of its competitive edges and resources. It manages to splutter on like a zombie until the USA pulls out life support in the Suez Crisis

-Fast forward to 2025 UK still in this bizarre place where it can produce people who invent crazy shit like the world wide web, plastic or microchip wafers and yet not actually capture much of that value chain in its own economy, preferring instead to outsource what little of its industry remains. Where it retains some great resource, it just sells it off to foreign hedge funds and state investment vehicles, selling off our land, our transport, our water. There is something distinctly ironic that we export nuclear reactor parts but have lost the skills base to actually build nuclear reactors after they privatised the state owned construction firms. A british engineer will make more money working for a taiwanese semiconductor corp than they would for a british one, doing the same job. fully half of England is owned by 1% lmao -_-

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166134 on: January 20, 2025, 09:33:10 pm »

-WWI breaks out. Directly, the war traumatises the public, raises nationalism in overseas colonies through the roof (having already lost Ireland), indebts the government to JP Morgan, wipes out their wealth reserves and all the overseas investments made and lost. Indirectly, the British Empire more than any of the global powers depended on globalisation. So the world's economies being in a state of disarray also wrought ruin to the British Empire's economy.

Nitpick - Irish independence didn't come until 1921, after The War To End All Wars.

But overall, yeah. In 1938 the idea that the Empire was dying wasn't really there yet. There was still a lot of concern about potential rivals - gallons of ink were spent on war plans against the United States in the event relations soured. Not fighting Hitler (especially when they were able to get him to sign a treaty that would prevent him from ever building a fleet that could threaten the Royal Navy) seemed like a wise decision.
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Great Order

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166135 on: January 21, 2025, 08:13:59 am »

It became convenient for Britons to later forget that appeasement was highly popular with most of them right up to the point when Hitler’s invasion of Poland revealed the magnitude of the error. Chamberlain was widely proclaimed a masterful statesman when he came back from Munich in 1938 with his infamous piece of paper promising “peace for our time”. In a flagrant abuse of his constitutional position, George VI invited the prime minister on to the balcony of Buckingham Palace to receive the cheers of the crowds thronging the Mall. They sang Rule Britannia and For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow.
oof
To be fair, it's generally considered nowadays that part of that was to give Britain time to get onto a war footing. Going to war then and there would have been catastrophic, although kicking Hitler in the nuts early might have had him take a moment to realise that, no, other countries won't just sit by and let him invade the world.

Although the remilitarisation of the Rhineland would have been a better point for that one.

And yet, had he stuck to Germany, we'd have sat by while he genocided every minority living there, and we'd probably have not spent the next 70 years thinking of fascism as a failed ideology, leading to more fascist leaders. 'Course nowadays they got past that by simply rebranding fascism but y'know, that was still a decent 70 year spate. There were a handful, but most authoritarian states were just that - Authoritarian.
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Mathel

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166136 on: January 21, 2025, 10:40:34 am »

When I was going from work, I was putting my keys away when suddenly:

Mathel scratches Mathel in second finger, left hand with his thumb, left hand, tearing the skin and cutting the skin.

Not a serious injury, since the bottom skin layer is just cut cleanly through and the flesh beneath doesn't seem to be cut at all. But I am confused because I had recently trimmed the nail on my left thumb and none of my nails are even sharp. I make sure they aren't when I trim them.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166137 on: January 21, 2025, 11:17:07 am »

When I was going from work, I was putting my keys away when suddenly:

Mathel scratches Mathel in second finger, left hand with his thumb, left hand, tearing the skin and cutting the skin.

Mathel: Amidst conflict... I feel confused!
Mathel: I have improved my scratching. No, that was not satisfying.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166138 on: January 21, 2025, 12:55:40 pm »

Nitpick - Irish independence didn't come until 1921, after The War To End All Wars.

But overall, yeah. In 1938 the idea that the Empire was dying wasn't really there yet. There was still a lot of concern about potential rivals - gallons of ink were spent on war plans against the United States in the event relations soured. Not fighting Hitler (especially when they were able to get him to sign a treaty that would prevent him from ever building a fleet that could threaten the Royal Navy) seemed like a wise decision.
British Empire, you are already dead

nani

To be fair, it's generally considered nowadays that part of that was to give Britain time to get onto a war footing. Going to war then and there would have been catastrophic, although kicking Hitler in the nuts early might have had him take a moment to realise that, no, other countries won't just sit by and let him invade the world.

Although the remilitarisation of the Rhineland would have been a better point for that one.

And yet, had he stuck to Germany, we'd have sat by while he genocided every minority living there, and we'd probably have not spent the next 70 years thinking of fascism as a failed ideology, leading to more fascist leaders. 'Course nowadays they got past that by simply rebranding fascism but y'know, that was still a decent 70 year spate. There were a handful, but most authoritarian states were just that - Authoritarian.
There's a great part in Romance of the Three Kingdoms where Yuan Shao's advisors are debating how they should react against their rival warlord Cao Cao. The pro-defence camp argue they should just sit back and prepare, since they own four counties and Cao Cao only owns two, so time is on their side. The pro-attack camp argues they should attack right away, because although it is true they have greater manpower, resources and equipment to mobilise, Cao Cao needs time more than they do. Hindsight always a bitch but this quote very relevant:

"We did not collapse in 1939 only because during the Polish campaign 110 British and French divisions did absolutely nothing against our 23 on the Western Front."
I don't blame anyone for not making the perfect choices with the limited info they had but even with that benefit of the doubt, there was certainly a lot of confusion and paranoia between the three principle allies that just... Damn guys fr

Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #166139 on: January 21, 2025, 03:04:36 pm »

And yet, had he stuck to Germany, we'd have sat by while he genocided every minority living there, and we'd probably have not spent the next 70 years thinking of fascism as a failed ideology, leading to more fascist leaders.
He was never going to. Fascism eats itself when it has nothing to attack, there must always be an external enemy. A fascist state just keeps picking fights until it picks one too big and gets destroyed, or else runs out of enemies and destroys itself.
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