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[Eric Blank]

Damnit someone needs to get on the phone and tell someone to tell him to do that.

[EuchreJack]

It's important to point out that under President Obama, and further under President Trump, American citizens could be murdered without trial outside of the US borders.  I'm worried that people forget this...

[anewaname]

Well, is someone still a citizen when they are actively supporting a group that is effectively in a "physical war" with the USA, even if that group isn't recognized as a nation/state?  "Physical war", versus "economic", "legal" or "political", etc.

Probably Obama's administration should have begun by using the legal system against Al-Awlaki, to offer him the opportunity to turn himself in to face legal consequences rather than physical consequences, but did Obama even have that option? The time from 9/11/2001 to 2008 was spent building a tool for the corporeal punishment of al-Qaeda, not a tool for diplomacy. Obama inherited a 7 year-old gun, and his election didn't give him the ability to modify that gun. Do you really think that no American citizens were killed overseas by American military contractors during Bush's seven years of post 9/11 activity? That Bush Jr, who looked into Putin's eyes and managed to see a good soul, let other people handle those seven years of post-911 overseas activity, and people got murdered.

So, I disagree with the idea this problem started with Obama... and I suspect the Wikileaks data blob would also.

[Frumple]

Well, is someone still a citizen when they are actively supporting a group that is effectively in a "physical war" with the USA, even if that group isn't recognized as a nation/state?  "Physical war", versus "economic", "legal" or "political", etc.

I mean, yes, they are. It's slightly less certain with naturalized vs birthright citizens, but the latter is basically impossible to be stripped from someone. If you're born on american soil you're a US citizen until you specifically recant it with incredibly clear intent, probably signed in triplicate. For legally (illegally is a different question, and that actually gets removed relatively regularly when it's caught) naturalized citizens... iirc, it's possible to have that removed without consent, but as far as I can recall it's very literally never actually happened.

US citizenship is one of the hardest citizenships in the entire goddamn world to lose. You have to very actively want it gone, go through the hoops to have it struck, because the default is "No, you want to keep that" even if you're joining up with a terrorist organization actively attacking US forces or some shit. Without your consent, if you piss off the US they're not going to strip your citizenship, they're going to have you extradited and put in a US prison or murdered or somethin'.

[Truean]

[Please do not quote]
When your faithful 2nd in command calls what you want wrong under threats to hang him (Mike Pence) but somehow no consequences:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-presumptive-immunity-pressuring-pence-162423999.html

And calls for military tribunals for any political rival who questioned you even when they were never in the military but still:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-amplifies-posts-calling-televised-131200508.html

Then just wow. Literal one rule for thee but not for me..... Kinda shocking and such immunity should not exist (doesn't matter if there's a democrat or republican in the white house).

If you don't like it, complaining and demanding the impossible won't help, but a constitutional amendment however:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-dem-introduce-amendment-reverse-224726085.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

[Please do not quote]

[McTraveller]

I'd be impressed if we could get a new amendment passed in the present era. If there's ever a time for one, this is probably it.

Trouble is, who knows what kind of goofy results will arise from the inevitable vague wording that will be necessary to have it even have a chance for ratification.

[Truean]

[Please do not quote]

The tragedy is, you may be right. Forgive me if I hope you're not, because if you are then bad things for lots of people (not your fault).

Liberals have no overarching plan and many actually somehow say such a plan is not needed. Let me be clear, it is. Conservatives have one.
https://www.project2025.org/

All the various whatever flavor of more liberal individuals out there and many centralist(s) who can't agree on anything.... It's bad what they're planning and how he's above the law if he says it's official.

Anyone who tries to impose some semblance of order to get an operational plan is seen as a jerk by some individuals. There are multiple reasons flung about including not fully supporting one cause or another (though they may be very important causes) Nope. I realize the stakes and what'll happen if this all tanks. All those causes will be bulldozed over if it goes Trump and he'll bulldoze them. He doesn't care. Now that a president is above the law if something is "official" they won't hardly pause to do whatever thing they want.

We shouldn't have to chose between "Biden and Trump." Yup, I don't think we should have to either, but this is what we have. Biden is flawed but he's not actively trying to mess things up. We deserve better but until that happens things need to hang together so such a choice can exist in the future. If they remove Biden from the ticket, then they better put in a real winner, and I don't know who that is right now.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it: This is how we lost LBJ and got freaking NIXON.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

During the 1968 election, President Lyndon B. Johnson shocked the nation on March 31 by announcing, “I shall not seek, and will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president.” Students ran outside their apartments and onto the streets of Greenwich Village to celebrate the news.

With the nation in the throes of urban unrest and a disastrous war in Vietnam, LBJ — the architect of the Great Society — found himself deeply unpopular among Americans. The chant, “Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?” had replaced “All the way with LBJ.” He was also wrestling a global financial crisis, centering on a gold run. Johnson promised that he would respond through a policy of stringency, cutting spending and raising taxes, so as to stabilize the US budget.

After Sen. Eugene McCarthy, running as an anti-war candidate, nearly defeated Johnson in the New Hampshire primary, Johnson decided to step out of the race. He would use the political freedom that afforded him to try bringing the war to an end before his term ended.

His plan didn’t work. Not only did Vietnam continue to rage for many more years but former Republican Vice President Richard Nixon, a politician detested by liberals for his ferocious anti-communism, won, after LBJ announced he would not accept the Democratic nomination. Yes, LBJ had issues, but Nixon is notorious to this day. Also nothing good happened.

Go ahead and replace LBJ Biden with V.P. Hubert Humphrey Kamala Harris .... This happened before with no real plan and went bad then.... Please tell me history doesn't repeat.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at them saying Trump's scheme to appoint fake electors who were not actual electors to steal the election was an "official act" and thus he can't be prosecuted for it:
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4751339-donald-trump-attorney-fake-electors-scheme-official-act-immunity-decision/

Liberals need a bare bones agenda everyone can get behind. Your (whoever you are including me) causes and issues (although they may be very important) are probably not going to be included, at least not right away during this mess. It would just be something to buy enough time to keep things from getting worse. Otherwise, the idea of those causes you find important being addressed ever might never happen. There has to be some framework to address, [insert list of causes here] climate change, gender/racial equality, right to choose/healthcare/abortion, immigration issues, economic issues, student debt, police issues including brutality/funding/proper vs improper use, international issues including Ukraine and Palestine but also many others, housing, employment, AI, pollution, trade relations with other countries, taxes and who pays them, LGBT issues, religious rights, and basically everything. Trump will laugh at all of that. Is everyone kidding thinking there is any chance for any non hyper conservative cause you may  care about under Trump? Trump used "Palestinian" as an insult during the debate but he's said so much offensive stuff that practically no one blinked much less called for him to drop out of the race, because his racism isn't new. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-uses-palestinian-slur-second-175955948.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Without a stable base, none of that has got a chance to be resolved. Project 2025 under Trump is going to destroy that base if it gets half a chance. Yes, we deserve better than this choice of Biden vs. Trump, but it's clear which one has project 2025 with multiple crimes with no defense except that he's above the law and which one is trying to keep things together by rejecting the idea a president is above the law

I'm hoping you're wrong and it could happen, but I'm scared you may very well be right. It's not enough to be against some bad thing, we have to have a plan to do a good thing practically.

WTF? How are we here.
[Please do not quote]

[Frumple]

We're here 'cause our forefathers fucked up reconstruction, been dealing with the consequences ever since. Lot of crap in the interim, but that's probably the core cause. Decades and decades of scumbag traitors and the children of scumbag traitors being left more or less alone to sabotage the functioning of the country. Throw in scumbag rich fucks that are funding it for reasons varied and you got yourself a really shitty stew being dumped over everyone.

Country's finally started to just kind of turn away from the fuckers so they've gone for the hail mary

Though as for why we're specifically choosing between two genocidal octogenarians (one with twice the genocide!) in november, well, that's largely because age demographics screwed us all over, yet again. Outsized influence of folks that think people in their 70s and 80s in high office isn't an entirely pisspoor idea, go figure we get 80 year olds in the oval office as a consequence. Maybe if we still have a coherent country and something approximating actual elections when the millennials and genners have the numbers that'll change, but bloody unfortunately that ain't this cycle. Probably not for a couple more at minimum, blech.

[Magmacube_tr]

I hate and get dumbfounded by the fact that American elections carry worldwide stakes.

If you guys go full Project 2025 over there, things will change at many parts of the world. Namely, things will stray to the right. And as history shows, that's never a good thing for pretty much %99 of people, ever.

I just don't want the fucking sharia-supporting wannabe Salafis to get even more galvanised. It is bad as it is.

[hector13]

Things are already swinging right, dude. The RN in France are on the verge of getting a majority for government, Geert Wilders won in the Netherlands, Italy have a leader from a party whose roots come from the fascist movement. That has nothing to do with the US.

[Frumple]

Eh... considering the amount the US literally funds (or serve as very blatant inspiration for*) such crap outside the country, it probably does have at least some to do with the US. Not wholly, of course, but it's really hard to escape the ten ton gorilla throwing poop around the room.

*Though in some degree of fairness, that's not exactly new. Luminaries such as the goddamn nazis have been citing stateside behavior as a good idea for a long, long time.

[dragdeler]

Ned flanders sounded better from inside the bunker. Today I oviposited a sandgrain I had been gestating for the better part of a year. And I should keep a head wood plank near the bed to knock myself over the head when insomniac to imporove my adjustement.

How cute I allready named my imaginary stick

[Magmacube_tr]

Things are already swinging right, dude.

I meant even further to the right. I know the current surge of right wing infestations are convergent developments rather than 'Murican ploys. But USA's hegemonic power and export of culture all across the globe will have an undeniable effect on the world, regardless on however this election goes.

[Great Order]

I hate and get dumbfounded by the fact that American elections carry worldwide stakes.

As they say, America sneezes and the world catches a cold.

It's the nature of having superpowers, especially when there's no counterbalancing superpower to turn to.

I do feel like after the cold war the US has had a bit of an identity crisis. They've always had *someone* to oppose. The British Empire gave way to the Soviet Union, then that gave way to the War On Terror. Now there's rumblings about China but as far as I can tell there's no solid rivalry there. The Reps don't have an issue with this, they've got enough internal quote-unquote "threats" to deal with (i.e. liberals, LGBTQ+, non-whites, non-Christians), but the liberal side of the spectrum has no idea what it's doing aside from opposing that, and the country as a whole doesn't have an external, unifying threat to deal with.

[pisskop]

I wonder how the history books will remember poor ole america, 500 years into the future.  will they look back and see a stoic freedom loving republic?  Or a cringy self-loathing product of its time.