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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14915775 times)

Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161760 on: January 18, 2023, 11:58:23 pm »

I... can't tell what changed. Looking at it. Maybe high contrast mode disables most of whatever the changes were, on firefox?

High contrast screws with website formatting pretty often, tbh... since I started using it to make system colors less eye searing, I've definitely noticed that a lot of places give little to no consideration what their website looks like when accessibility features are enabled. Has made me sympathize a little more with the general hostility societies have towards disabled folks that actually need the stuff to interact with computers :-\
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brewer bob

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161761 on: January 19, 2023, 12:08:34 am »

The disappearance of horizontal and vertical lines is my main complaint with a quick glance. I'm having problems trying to focus on the text without those.

Edit: What? Now they're back? Uh, I have no idea what's happening...

Also the sidebar on the left seemed to have disappeared, but fortunately that's not the case and it's a collapsible one (though, I would not have found it without googling).

...I'll get used to it eventually, was just shocked for something this unexpected.


Edit continued: Maybe I should go to sleep and check it tomorrow when not so tired...

bloop_bleep

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Maximum Spin

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161763 on: January 19, 2023, 02:35:12 am »

The disappearance of horizontal and vertical lines is my main complaint with a quick glance. I'm having problems trying to focus on the text without those.

Edit: What? Now they're back? Uh, I have no idea what's happening...

Also the sidebar on the left seemed to have disappeared, but fortunately that's not the case and it's a collapsible one (though, I would not have found it without googling).

...I'll get used to it eventually, was just shocked for something this unexpected.


Edit continued: Maybe I should go to sleep and check it tomorrow when not so tired...
No, no, you were right, it's absolutely happening on and off between articles. I don't know why, but I assume they're a/b testing. (And since I refused their cookies they can't commit to putting me in a or b.)
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161764 on: January 19, 2023, 02:57:01 am »

I originally wrote this as a response to Mathel but I tried reworking to address more of the ones with similar points too.

Personally, I always thought of genocide as meaning specifically killing of people based on ethnicity. Similarly to how fratricide means killing one's own brother, regicide means killing of a king, fungicide is something that kills mushrooms, and so on.

Neither of these other "X-cide" words can mean killing of the concept of X (or a specific case of X). So genocide should not mean the killing of the concept of the group, but the actual killing of the group. Which is done by killing it's members.

Genocide, the term, was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Jew who fled Europe to America, iirc in the 30"s or 40's sometime. He explicitly defines it not just as killing persons but killing the people. Cultural destruction is central to his ideas. In his writings he exemplifies this with the soviet Union Holodomor, the genocide of the Ukrainian people, and how it involved not just the structural starvation of people but also the attempt to stamp out the Ukrainian identity and institutions, the cultural habits which differentiates them from Russians, and their language.

Genocide was a new idea that hadn't really been put into a word before, despite nationalism being an ideological centerepoint for Europe for the last two to three hundred years or so and the idea of the nation state (summed up in one sentence as "one state, one nation") shaping European governents' attitudes to minorities for a whole lot of that time. But the term described something real, and was quickly recognised at least partially, since it's coining came very timely with the need to describe the Holocaust -- their first briad usage iirc was during the Nutnberg trials. Lemkin's ideas met resistance, however, when it came to fully implement them into UN conchords, as while European powers and rhetoric US had been quick to use the parts of the ideas regarding ethnical cleansing theough mass murder to heap blame on Germany over the Holocaust, really did not want to acknowledge the parts about cultural genocide since that would incriminate their own pursuits of the nation state as genocidal. So they cut the ideas up and only legislated the parts of it they liked, and that is why the UN definition of genocide to this day only concerns mass murder.

The thing is, though, that Lemkin's ideas about genocide become hollow and hypocritical if one does not acknowledge the parts about cultural genocide. The idea of genocide do not hold up unless one also acknowledge the idea of the destruction of the genos as a crime against humanity. These are the parts of his ideas that put into thought a new concept, that needed a new word to be described. There already existed plenty of words for massacring and mass murder (Holocaust being one of them), that wasn't anything new. Sequestering genocide to just being about killing persons goes against the very point of Lemkin's ideas and work.


Personally, I always thought of genocide as meaning specifically killing of people based on ethnicity. Similarly to how fratricide means killing one's own brother, regicide means killing of a king, fungicide is something that kills mushrooms, and so on.

Neither of these other "X-cide" words can mean killing of the concept of X (or a specific case of X). So genocide should not mean the killing of the concept of the group, but the actual killing of the group. Which is done by killing it's members.

But I also wanted to respond more directly to this point too. Those other things –the brother, the king, the fungus – are actual things that can die and be killed. A people, a nation or folk or genos, only exist as a concept. It is an identity. It is a thought. It is conceptual. It can only be "killed" as a metaphor for it's destruction because it is only "alive" as a metaphor for it's existance. That is the difference between these words.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161765 on: January 19, 2023, 03:50:52 am »

Strictly speaking, Ukraine hasn't banned the Russian language. It has just said that it may not be used for any state purposes, which includes schools. There's no reason the people in the eastern Oblasts can't still speak Russian or practice Russian customs among themselves. It's just that for example, when Ukrainian officials speak, you must answer in Ukrainian, even if you don't know the language.

That may be a fine line. I do not believe it should qualify as a genocide. The periodic shelling of ethnic Russian cities in eastern Ukraine starting in 2014 and continuing right up until 2022 is a different matter entirely.

The moment someone starts talking about how Ukraine somehow oppresses Russian speakers I mention how the whole country can speak Russian, the capital speaks a whole lot of Russian, and mostly no one will blink an eye if you speak Russian to them, even now. Zelenskyy is a native Russian speaker, for fuck's sake. Whenever you hear this, it is nothing but a vicarious persecution complex. Is Algeria oppressing its French speakers by not having French as a state language? No, trying to protect a national language after centuries of Russian imperialism -- which you may have noticed is not quite over -- is not oppression.

And shelling cities? You mean in the war started by proxy fascist Putinist mafia states?
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Mathel

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161766 on: January 19, 2023, 10:47:22 am »

But I also wanted to respond more directly to this point too. Those other things –the brother, the king, the fungus – are actual things that can die and be killed. A people, a nation or folk or genos, only exist as a concept. It is an identity. It is a thought. It is conceptual. It can only be "killed" as a metaphor for it's destruction because it is only "alive" as a metaphor for it's existance. That is the difference between these words.

You can kill a king's kinghood by deposing him, yet it is not regicide. In fact, if it were, a king abdicating would be performing autoregicide. You can kill your brother's brotherhood by denouncing him and breaking all contact, yet it is not fratricide.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161767 on: January 19, 2023, 10:59:35 am »

Great, good, that's 'to depose' and 'to denounce.'

And the word for systematic destruction of a people by eradication of their culture is....
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McTraveller

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161768 on: January 19, 2023, 11:19:53 am »

The Internet!   ;D
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Mathel

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161769 on: January 19, 2023, 11:22:44 am »

It is 'to opress'.
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Thorfinn

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161770 on: January 19, 2023, 11:40:26 am »

Strictly speaking, Ukraine hasn't banned the Russian language. It has just said that it may not be used for any state purposes, which includes schools. There's no reason the people in the eastern Oblasts can't still speak Russian or practice Russian customs among themselves. It's just that for example, when Ukrainian officials speak, you must answer in Ukrainian, even if you don't know the language.

That may be a fine line. I do not believe it should qualify as a genocide. The periodic shelling of ethnic Russian cities in eastern Ukraine starting in 2014 and continuing right up until 2022 is a different matter entirely.

The moment someone starts talking about how Ukraine somehow oppresses Russian speakers I mention how the whole country can speak Russian, the capital speaks a whole lot of Russian, and mostly no one will blink an eye if you speak Russian to them, even now. Zelenskyy is a native Russian speaker, for fuck's sake. Whenever you hear this, it is nothing but a vicarious persecution complex. Is Algeria oppressing its French speakers by not having French as a state language? No, trying to protect a national language after centuries of Russian imperialism -- which you may have noticed is not quite over -- is not oppression.

And shelling cities? You mean in the war started by proxy fascist Putinist mafia states?
I'm guessing you meant to quote someone else? I did not use the word "oppress" anywhere in that post.

And, no, by shelling cities, I mean not Putin but the periodic shells the Ukrainian "paramilitaries" have been lobbing into Luhansk and Donetsk over the last 8 years. Y'know, after Obama engineered a coup in Kiev in 2014.
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brewer bob

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161771 on: January 19, 2023, 12:43:55 pm »

The disappearance of horizontal and vertical lines is my main complaint with a quick glance. I'm having problems trying to focus on the text without those.

Edit: What? Now they're back? Uh, I have no idea what's happening...

Also the sidebar on the left seemed to have disappeared, but fortunately that's not the case and it's a collapsible one (though, I would not have found it without googling).

...I'll get used to it eventually, was just shocked for something this unexpected.


Edit continued: Maybe I should go to sleep and check it tomorrow when not so tired...
No, no, you were right, it's absolutely happening on and off between articles. I don't know why, but I assume they're a/b testing. (And since I refused their cookies they can't commit to putting me in a or b.)

Ah, I think I have cookies refused there too.

Regardless, it's not a terrible change, but I do find the collapsible sidebar very annoying and that the contents lists of articles instead are now on the left. With longer contents lists and my small laptop screen there's now even more scrolling (or at least as much as before) as the whole list doesn't always fit there. Also, more mouse waving to reach the left side instead of just using the scroll wheel to head back up. Not something my crappy wrists will like in the long run.

hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161772 on: January 19, 2023, 02:21:59 pm »

It is 'to opress'.
I am impressed by your stubbornness.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161773 on: January 19, 2023, 02:31:10 pm »

i too feel the "systematic destruction of my people and culture" when a thought weighs heavily on my mind or when sleepy or weary or when i'm chafed by unjust rules or authority, or when i am made to feel uncomfortable or worried, and sometimes ill, or anxious

here's my primary sources:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/oppress
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppress
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/oppress
https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/oppress
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #161774 on: January 19, 2023, 02:45:16 pm »

And, no, by shelling cities, I mean not Putin but the periodic shells the Ukrainian "paramilitaries" have been lobbing into Luhansk and Donetsk over the last 8 years. Y'know, after Obama engineered a coup in Kiev in 2014.

Obama didn't engineer a fucking coup. That's a straight-up lie - the President of the time sparked massive protests by illegally refusing to follow the decisions of the elected parliament (which, due to large public support, wanted to improve economic ties with the EU in order to seek eventual membership) in order to obey Putin's orders (which was that Ukraine was a vassal state of Russia that doesn't have the right to conduct their own diplomacy). This lead to the death of dozens of protestors and the Ukrainian Parliament forced the President to resign. Putin declared this a coup because his lapdog was no longer obeying his orders.

There has been shelling in those regions - because there's been a fucking civil war going after Putin flooded the areas with "separatists" in an attempt to give him a fig leaf to steal large parts of the country. You know, as a prelude to his "There is no such thing as a Ukrainian" war of extermination against the entire country.
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