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[McTraveller]

1. I have never heard of anyone's job being jeopardized due to misgendering a trans person, on accident or on purpose.

Pretty sure Gina Carano got fired for doing exactly that?  So this isn't a hypothetical at all. I think there have also been several "journalists," sports figures, and I think academic professionals that have also been fired (or kicked off teams) for their stances on pronouns.

This is a dangerous precedent - on one hand, threat of firing is very good for effecting social change.  On the other hand, you may not get the social change you wanted. That is, if group A suppresses activity B by taking away people's livelihoods, then what is to stop group C from doing the same thing with activity D?

Another aspect is that such action does combat systemic issues but by explicitly harming the "employability" of specific individuals compared to the "diffuse" effects of systemic issues which don't usually target specific individuals.

I would actually rather put people in custody than fire them and create martyrs at worst or another unemployed person at best.

[EuchreJack]

I think it's quite relevant that we have two discussions going on:

1) People afraid of being fired for saying the wrong thing.
2) People discussing the Anti-work movement.

Because I'm the biggest fool of all, I've taken the Third Option: Scrape by self-employed.  Everyone dreams about it, but most wouldn't last a year. Because it's less profitable than working for others, and it's more work than... whatever people do to "not work"

[Vector]

1. I have never heard of anyone's job being jeopardized due to misgendering a trans person, on accident or on purpose.

Pretty sure Gina Carano got fired for doing exactly that?

Wiki:

Lucasfilm announced in 2021 that Carano would not appear in future Star Wars projects following a series of controversial posts she made to social media.[5][6][7] These included tweets in which she mocked the use of face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States[5][76][77] and repeated claims of voter fraud during the 2020 presidential election.[5][76][70] In late 2020, Carano clashed with activists on Twitter, who criticized her lack of public support for the Black Lives Matter movement,[78] leading some to accuse her of racism.[78][79][80] Weeks later, after facing calls from some fans to put her preferred gender pronouns in her Twitter profile,[78][81] she added the words "beep/bop/boop". Critics interpreted this as ridicule,[5] leading to accusations of transphobia.[82][83][71] She later apologized[82] and removed them, saying that Mandalorian actor Pedro Pascal had helped her understand the use of preferred pronouns.[71][5][76]

In February 2021, Carano shared an Instagram post that compared "hating someone for their political views" to the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust[76][70][77] and included an image taken during the Lviv pogroms.[82][84][note 1] Many critics interpreted the post as comparing American conservatives to Jews in Nazi Germany.[5] Shortly afterward, Lucasfilm stated that Carano was no longer employed by the company, saying that "her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable".[85][86][87] The same day, she was dropped by United Talent Agency.[7][86]

So, just to be clear, 1. Gina Carano did not target any particular trans person 2. She did not misgender anyone, she just made fun of the overall concept of pronouns 3. She had piles of other politically incorrect opinions 4. This was based on a written record of a woman in a highly public job on Twitter, not just randomly calling a trans person in your workplace by the incorrect pronoun a la "innocent mistake."


I want to be clear that I'm not talking about things like the canceling of Graham Linehan for virulent and extremely public anti-trans rhetoric, nor whatever the fuck JKR is doing (award-winning transphobia, apparently).

What we were talking about was the possibility of getting fired for accidentally calling a trans person the wrong thing, once. I raised the bar to "I have never heard of anyone anywhere getting fired for *just* misgendering a trans person, on purpose or not." Backing up misgendering the person on purpose with piles of hate speech? Yeah, the person *might* be disciplined. But just misgendering?

Look guys, if you're that worried about it, all you have to say is "it's just so hard you know, we didn't HAVE trans people when I was growing up" and almost everyone except, like, maybe a trans HR person (I have never met or heard of a trans HR person) will be like "yeah I understand but you need to get it right" and that will be that. At most. A little pat on the wrist.

[McTraveller]

Ah sorry, I thought it was just in general getting fired for using the wrong words, not for a specific incident of it.

[None]

I would actually rather put people in custody than fire them and create martyrs at worst or another unemployed person at best.

No, no, no, no. Better to be jailed than unemployed? Better to have a criminal record than having to explain that bigotry lost you your last gig?

Jesus, d'you know how difficult it is to get work anywhere if you've had any sort of scrap with the law? Talk about corporate cancel culture!

This is like the 'root ball, dirt & all' or 'seed on the bottom of your car' to the 'war on drugs possession'-level misguidance.

[EuchreJack]

...it's also cheaper to pay someone unemployment than to pay for them to be in jail.

Seriously, nobody understands how fucking expensive it is to jail people.

Also, for those in the USA, we're missing a critical point:
The Government is bound by the US Constitution.  Most State government and below are bound by State Constitution.
Corporations are only bound by laws.  Which can be overwritten by the US Constitution and/or State Constitution.

So getting fired and putting people in jail are two very different things.

[dragdeler]

a

[Frumple]

...it's also cheaper to pay someone unemployment than to pay for them to be in jail.

Seriously, nobody understands how fucking expensive it is to jail people.

I vaguely remember seeing the rikers price tag up in new york recently, something like 120-170k annually, i.e. 10-15x my income and enough to put six or seven four people households over the federal poverty line. Per prisoner. Price tag's going to be cheaper elsewhere, but... well, country average is still 25-30k per head.

... unfortunately, if you just lifted that price per head wholesale it'd only pull about a twentieth of the folks below the poverty line out of it (bit under 2 million vs 37-ish m), but... still. If our country nixed the prison spending and just gave poor fuckers the money, it'd cut our poverty rate by one household in twenty, right then and there. Solid tenth if you go per person instead of per 3-4 person household.

Pricetag of the carceral state: At least one out of every ten people in the US identified by the state as impoverished, probably more considering the massive net negative knockon effects

[martinuzz]

As a bonus, less people will be jailed because people aren't forced to sell drugs and children anymore to be able to afford food and water.

[McTraveller]

I picked my words carefully - but not carefully enough; there's a reason I used "in custody" instead of "in prison"; I don't think it should be a criminal offense.  Specifically because - being "unemployable" due to a criminal record is not an improvement over being "unemployable" due to being cancelled.  (I wasn't even thinking about price tag here.)

I think the core problems are indeed housing and health care; we've got to weaken the dependency on those things to employment.

Spoiler: theorycrafting (click to show/hide)

For housing I've been having mental experiments lately with infeasible new regulations: For example to improve the availability of low-cost housing and prevent organizations or people from just buying up low-cost housing and turning it into rental property, what would happen if we said that you can only buy properties that are more expensive than any individual property that you currently own, unless you are doing a direct swap.  That is if you are building a portfolio you have to always buy up; but you can sell an expensive property and buy a single cheaper property.

For health care: separate urgent care, preventive care, and continual care.  That is, preventive (basic physicals, immunizations, etc) should be completely public.  Urgent care (broken bones, accidents, etc.) could be shared public/personal; you have to pay some "reasonable" amount for these services. I'd put it at the same price range as basic car maintenance - you shouldn't have to pay more than $100-$200 for that stuff. (Compare to when my son broke an arm - cost more than $5000 due to high-deductible plans!).  Then have "insurance" for things like cancer, heart failure, strokes, etc.

For my family, health care premiums are as expensive as my mortgage - and I'll be able to pay off the mortgage some day, but never health care premiums...

[None]

I'm... Not really sure how you detain someone without criminal intent.

[martinuzz]

A journalist from New Zealand, Charlotte Bellis (known for being the Al Jazeera reporter that was the first to ask a question at the press conference when the Taliban took over; she asked them how they would ensure women rights), has had to turn to the Taliban for aid.

When working in Qatar, she missed a period, and found out she was pregnant. This was a huge surprise, doctors had always told her she was infertile.
This meant she had to immediatly flee from Qatar, for it is a criminal offense there for an unmarried woman to be pregnant.

But then she couldn't go back to her home country, New Zealand. She was put on the long waiting list for mandatory quarantaine.
She went to Belgium, where her friend and fellow worker is from. But in Belgium she was only allowed to stay for a short period, because of Schengen rules and regulations.

Yet still, she couldn't go back to New Zealand, because waiting list for quarantaine (which is basically a random lottery system, some people have not been able to go home to New Zealand for 2 years now because they didn't get a lucky draw).
She had to go back to Afghanistan, the only country she now has a valid visum for.
She wrote a letter to a high-placed Taliban official explaining the situation.
He told her 'You are welcome to come. Just tell anyone who asks that you are married, and call me when you get into trouble'.

Now she is in Kabul, fearing for her life, because Afghan healthcare has collapsed and a tens of thousands of women die every year while giving birth, and fearing for her life if someone finds out she is unmarried and pregnant.
The only medication hospitals in Kabul have at the moment are newspaper-wrapped loose paracetamol tablets.

She wrote a letter to the New Zealand Herald, asking her government.
'A few months ago I asked the Taliban what they would to to protect women and girls. Now I have to ask the same question to my own government. When the Taliban are the only ones offering you - a pregnant, unmarried woman - a safe place, you know you are in trouble'.

She then tried to apply for the medical emergency list for quarantaines. That was disapproved, because to apply for that, you need an exact date for medical procedure. Which ofcourse, with a pregnancy, is impossible to predict.

Only when she told her friends and acquaintances in New Zealand that she was going to appeal in court, and go public worldwide with the whole situation, she recieved word that 'her application will be looked at again'.

She is still in Kabul, far along with the pregnancy, hoping she can go home soon.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-new-zealand-journalist-charlotte-bellis-pregnant-and-stuck-in-afghanistan-denied-emergency-miq-spot/M5CYHAFNIEXPGRHW6EKAXXPJVA/

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/miq-still-needed-despite-kiwi-journalist-charlotte-bellis-stuck-in-afghanistan-being-refused-entry-to-nz-epidemiologist/V4DOMTMSWEW5GFM6FFYR4GYHDQ/


Perhaps New Zealand needs a name change, to Kafkaestan

[Frumple]

I'm... Not really sure how you detain someone without criminal intent.

I'm equally unsure quite what you mean, heh, unless you mean criminal intent on the part of the detainers. US cops detain folks they're 110% aware have broken no laws or had zero criminal intent pretty much daily. Less jackbooted, there's medical related stuff (quarantine, suicide watch, certain sorts of hospice, etc.) and things like school detention or whatever.

I picked my words carefully - but not carefully enough; there's a reason I used "in custody" instead of "in prison"; I don't think it should be a criminal offense.  Specifically because - being "unemployable" due to a criminal record is not an improvement over being "unemployable" due to being cancelled.  (I wasn't even thinking about price tag here.)

Like, I don't think I've ever actually heard of anyone rendered unemployable due to being "cancelled"... well, except for things like someone being outed as LGBT or whatever and stuck in a conservative area.

Folks have lost their current job due to being assholes or causing a particularly pernicious public stink, but in every case I can recall hearing about (and with zero doubt in the vast majority of them) they still go on to find work after a bit, generally without much actual trouble. They're about like folks that manage to dodge a sexual assault or rape charge on that front. Certain sorts of abuse don't actually see much in the way of genuine or lasting repercussion, you just have particular strains of jackass scream real loudly about people not ignoring the abuses in question.

Or in other words, you're absolutely correct being unemployable due to a criminal record isn't an improvement over being "unemployable" due to being cancelled, because the latter largely isn't a thing to begin with, heh.

[None]

I'm... Not really sure how you detain someone without criminal intent.

I'm equally unsure quite what you mean, heh, unless you mean criminal intent on the part of the detainers. US cops detain folks they're 110% aware have broken no laws or had zero criminal intent pretty much daily. Less jackbooted, there's medical related stuff (quarantine, suicide watch, certain sorts of hospice, etc.) and things like school detention or whatever.

My bad- In hypothetical/ideal terms, with regards to the fuzz, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to have something, besides, y'know, arrest for resisting arrest, or yoked up charges that get dropped once they've done enough inconvenience/damage. This following off the prior discussions of legal action/prison/etc as consequence of this cancelable boogeyman that's getting lobbed around. Pretty sure nobody's pushing to get people medically institutionalized for being a dick or a bigot.

If someone were magically able to be put in custody for Saying The Wrong Thing in a way that isn't related to the justice system, medical system, educational system, whatever, someone's job still isn't going to survive the unmarked absences that follow, since the only thing worse for company image than having peons in the Bad Word Slammer is having peons that aren't working when you expect them to.

[Frumple]

In unrelated wtf, cheetoes mac and cheese... exists. I saw it existed, and had to try. I'm about to try -- it is cooked. It looks... like cheetoes (probably the most inappropriate color of mac and cheese I've ever made, the king of what-the-hell-is-this-no-really orange). It smells like cheetoes.

It tastes... like watery cheetoes. Okay. I'm not sure if this is the worst mac and cheese I've ever eaten, but. Close! Ahaha!

E: That said, the noodles they used are actually pretty decent quality. I've definitely had much worse macaroni in my mac and cheese. Too bad about the rest of it :V