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[TamerVirus]

A Dutch woman died after having a 'Brasilian Butt Lift' in Istanbul.

Don't know whether my WTF is that you can die from plastic butt surgery, or that it made front page news in the Volkskrant.
I guess it's good to warn people about the dangers of liking big butts.

When news stories like this pop up stateside, it's usually due to really shady back alley doctors injecting stuff that has no business of being injected into a posterior. Stuff like rubber cement, caulking, mineral oil, or silicone.

[martinuzz]

Apparently this is just a risky procedure in and of itself, with a relatively high chance of fat cells getting into the blood stream.
1 in 3000 people undergoing this type of butt surgery do not survive. Which is why the Dutch woman had to go to Turkey to get it done, it's not approved and illegal over here.

[Iduno]

A Dutch woman died after having a 'Brasilian Butt Lift' in Istanbul.

Don't know whether my WTF is that you can die from plastic butt surgery, or that it made front page news in the Volkskrant.
I guess it's good to warn people about the dangers of liking big butts.

When news stories like this pop up stateside, it's usually due to really shady back alley doctors injecting stuff that has no business of being injected into a posterior. Stuff like rubber cement, caulking, mineral oil, or silicone.

Or actual concrete like the doctor in Florida.

[hops]

Or she just died from the anaesthesia.

[LordBaal]

An old marriage of very academicaly acomplished people was found a few days ago in Merida, Venezuela lying on their bed. The woman had passed away from inhanition 3 days ago, the man was in critical malnourishment. Between the two of them perhaps earned 5 dollars per month.

[EuchreJack]

At the risk of sounding like a dead horse beater, you've got two problems- people that insist that demeaning a protected group of people/minority/The Other is their God-given right and corporations that understand that people are expendable and that liability reduces profits. The latter tolerate the former because the former support elected officials that will reduce corporate liability/taxes/regulations/etc and will do their best not to offend the former. They'll flip the script when it's fiscally/socially advantageous to pantomime support for whatever group/minority/social ideal (and there might really be some merit to the rote inclusivity/diversity training if inclusion actually makes it into the collective unconscience) and will do just enough lip-service to put on a good public image without supporting real social change. The exception here is probably where social change IS the public image (GamesDoneQuick springs to mind), but then the uncomfortable verbal goose-stepping you're afraid of there comes from retaliation from message deletion and collateral damage from people who are actively trying to be agitators/actively malicious.

The onus is on the speaker to protect profits and the status quo. Blame capitalism for this social issue.

I think it might be more pathological than that, on several fronts.

On the first one, you have employers that just want the problem to go away. Really, that is all they want.  They look at the mandatory inclusivity training (which is offensive and demeaning to somebody that is already inclusive, and was instead just fudge-smeared because of a misunderstanding, but the situation cannot resolve naturally because of problem 2 below) as a quick and easy solution to absolve themselves of any onus or responsibility. So, they use it that way, which is inappropriate.

On the next, you have people who are suffering from "straw that broke the camel's back" syndrome, that are literally exhausted from, and have no further reserve for, any perceived slight against their person/status. They are tired of correcting for incorrect pronouns. They are tired of people hitting on them. They are tired of X.  AND SOMEBODY JUST DID X. (or, more often, somebody did Y, but BY GOD, IT SOUNDED LIKE X! THERE WILL BE BLOOD!)  They are this way because of item 3 below, but the fact remains that they have no reserve left to deal with the false positives, and the false positives happen sufficiently often that it makes life a living hell for other people, because of how conditioned to pick up on the abuse they have become, and how easy it is to set off the nuclear firestorm as a result.

And finally, you have the "Wont change for nobody, No how!" types, who pine for the days when they could grab female staff by the ass, when they could beat up "they gays" and "The nerds", (and quite frequently, the spouse at home) and generally act belligerently toward anyone outside of their scope of "normal, right, and proper".  (If they are male, they tend to feel that women should stay at home, cook, clean, and be their personal fuck slave--- and if they are female, tend to think that men should be strong, commanding, and should defend their honor, and other nonsense. ) No amount of inclusivity training is going to fix this about them-- They feel offended that the world has changed away from what they found right and proper, and they relish every opportunity to be belligerent asses about it.

Overarching all three, you have federal and state legislatures that are made up of people so conditioned to bending to how the wind blows that they never progress society away from the awkward transitional mess it finds itself in right now, and have left it to flounder since the 60s.


The drive to remove all instances of the trigger from the people pushed to the edge by the assholes, results in an endless and eternal deathmarch of both social policy and language itself, toward ever greater degrees of absurdity.  There is an endless rinse-and-repeat cycle where a word gets smeared with group 3's negativity, gets used by group 3 (because they relish every opportunity to be assholes that way), which then corrupts the word, the word becomes taboo, group 2 blows up whenever it gets used (BECAUSE ITS X!!!), not matter what the context might actually be, and much like the employers who just want the problem to go away as easily and unmessily as possible, society just says "Ok, We cant use that word anymore, so lets just do THIS easy thing instead!" (which in the case of language, and word use, is just substituting another innocent word on the altar to get corrupted, taboo'ed and sacrificed-- rather than dealing with the real problem-- People of group 3-- because that is HARD.)

Consider:  The progression from "Slow" -> "Retarded", -> "Special", -> to now "Special Needs", as it relates to children with learning disabilities.  That's just within my own lifetime. 

The attempt to "TABOO IT AND IT WILL GO AWAY!" a word, never actually removes the causal use of that word. It just creates a vaccum in the language where the word used to be, that gets filled very quickly with the new, sacrificial word, which then falls victim to the same cycle.  Tabooing a word is easy, and thus is the path everyone always takes, in their effort to "Never offend anyone!"

The healthy and proper solution, is the social compromise:

Keep the current negative word.  Let group 3 out themselves at every opportunity.  Let them fully and completely demonstrate themselves, so that people using other words arent wrongly implicated by accident.  Accept that most people are not people from group 3, and as such, most interactions you have will not be with persons from group 3.  Accept this, and take it to heart; If something SEEMS like it is one thing, very carefully follow through in establishing that it is in fact that thing, before going off the rails.  Accept the fact that people can push your button on accident, and not mean to, and that most of the times your button gets pushed, it is from that.  (which is why clearly demarcating people in group 3, as group 3, is necessary, so that they can be unambiguously identified.)  Due to this acceptance, accept that you cannot live your life without ever being offended, or without ever offending anyone.  Instead, be courteous and accepting/accomodating when that happens, and work together for a better future.

That is not the path that society is taking though.

Society is taking the path of "Oh, you POOR DEAR THING--- You SHOULD have the **RIGHT** to never be offended!"

and then it crafts rules that lead to very strange places, like we are finding today.  Those rules, with that intention, invariably lead to those strange places, because the objective is not achievable.

Instead, the path society should be taking is:

"Are you a belligerent asshole that gets off on hurting other people?  There's a place for you.  Prison."  with a copious dose of "Verify quite surely, that this person is indeed that thing, before you put them there."

The flaw in this analysis is that there aren't three groups of different people, but rather all people have at least a tiny bit of each of those parts in us.

[heydude6]

*snip*

The flaw in this analysis is that there aren't three groups of different people, but rather all people have at least a tiny bit of each of those parts in us.

It isn't a problem when people only have a tiny bit of that inside themselves. The problem is when a person fully embodies those traits, and its usually only going to be one of them due to how contradictory they are.

I had an unfortunate encounter with the second type of person once. I don't want to bore you with details, but I feel like I have to in order for my story to seem credible.

We were a bunch of strangers brought together through circumstance. In our recently formed group was a shy Asian girl who didn't enjoy hanging out with people much and would frequently leave us to do her own thing. We didn't get to know her very well as a result. During the group's first day, I had trouble remembering her name, frequently getting it wrong, so in the middle of a card game she blew up and accused me of being racist.

I would have been skinned alive if it weren't for the fact that there were 3 other Asians there whose names I did remember who vouched for me (all strangers btw, but they actually socialized). In the ensuing discussion, she ended up revealing that back when she was a child, she was bullied in school so much that she chose to get her name legally changed. It's a sad story, bullying sucks, but this traumatic experience had warped her view of the world to the point where she saw everything through a racial lens. It prevented her from being able to see the more mundane explanation for my lack of name knowledge (ie. not having the time to get to know her) while also conveniently allowing her to ignore the possibility that this situation might have been the result of her own actions.

The second group are not average joes EuchreJack, they are the product of unfortunate circumstances. These are the people who genuinely benefit from trigger warnings because they were traumatized, and as a society we've been tasked with figuring out how to coexist with them. Wierd's post has been a breath of fresh air for me because he was brave enough to actually articulate how much of a pain in the ass it can sometimes be. Some people won't like hearing this, but burying this type of discussion does them no favors. It just paves the road for people like Trump to come into power. There needs to be a compromise.

Me and the Asian girl actually got along fairly well after that day, but the card game incident was still an incredibly unpleasant experience. I had to disclose my Asperger's to defend myself (which I hate doing) so now you've also got a minority trying to mob someone with a disability.

[EuchreJack]

So yeah, posting from phone, both before and now.

I like what Wierd said, but I think there are flaws that need ironing out.  Especially the part where we divide human flaws into three groups of people (who apparently aren't US), instead of acknowledging that we all have some parts of those traits in us

The ancient Greeks discussed humors within people, which is not a foreign concept to this discussion.

Why discuss this nuance? Because one must fully and accurately understand the problem before effective change can occur.

The constant changing of language with words becoming Taboo (also an Old Concept), should be curtailed.
Where have all the First Amendment (specifically Freedom of Speech, although all the Freedoms need Advocates) gone?

[EuchreJack]

@heydude6: In your post, you expressed all three groups.
1) Your concern with my analysis "burying this discussion" placed you in the first group, that wants things to go smoothly.
2) You are hypersensitive to being called "a racist", placing you in the second group.
3) Your direct response to me was made without significant regard to how I might feel about the personal call out

So you've proven my point quite well. Thanks!

As for those three states being seemingly contradictory, humans are naturally contradictory. It's how we're wired.

It might also help to see these three states as a spectrum or classification of how we react to these issues.

... What really set me off about Wierd's post is the part where incarceration was suggested as a solution. That was stupid.

[wierd]

To be fair, I was meaning it (incarceration) for the people that do the thing purposefully, joyfully, and knowingly, and do so with copious and ribald abandon.

You know, the people that think white nationalism is A-OK-SUPER.  et al.


Not the person who constantly slips "ma'am" at either men, or transmen, because they are used to dealing with a certain occupational class. (Happens to me at work all the time. Constantly called Ma'am, because nursing is a 99% female employee vocation)


No, the prescription was for people who use the N word, and get off on using it. It for people who get told "Please call me miss", and then gets in the person's face, and says "Sir" with a grotesque smile.


And, again, only after extensively verifying that the person is indeed, that kind of person.

[martinuzz]

Those people do not need prison. They need help.
This help may, or may not include forced medication, straitjackets, isolation wards and anti spitting and biting masks.

[Mathel]

EuchreJack, you are correct that we all have some amount of each in us. Who has how much I know not.

What I do know, that it only matters when it eclipses one's reason.

When it is not "I would rather distance myself from this", but rather "make sure I can't be blamed for anything, at any cost"
When it is not "I would rather not be called X", but "You called me X, now you die"
When it is not "I will call you boy because you are significantly younger than me" but "I will call you boy because I know you want to be called girl"

The last ones have a name. Bullies. But since bullying is difficult to prove, people just ignore it instead. I agree with wierd, there should be a constant effort to prove or disprove bullying or any kind, and the bullies should be punished.

Ninjad by martinuzz: If you force them medication, give them straijackets, etc., you have imprisoned them. Just in a way where they are not considered responsible for their actions.

[heydude6]

... What really set me off about Wierd's post is the part where incarceration was suggested as a solution. That was stupid.

Agreed. I don't think the prison system has been a good solution to any problem, besides absolute monsters like serial killers.


Since you've taken the effort to call me out directly, I owe you a response.

1) "Burying this discussion" was not in reference to you. It was in to reference to anyone who might have been bothered by the fact that I told an anecdote where race played a major role. For daring to make the claim that sometimes oppressed minorities can be mistaken and take things too far.

2) I wouldn't call it hypersensitivity. That girl deliberately tried to cancel me during my first day of a week-long group commitment. If she had successfully turned that group against me, it would have turned into a week-long hell. I had every reason to be afraid, especially since the white guy usually loses in these types of situations. Are you perhaps one of those people who believes cancel culture doesn't exist by any chance?

3) That's just basic assertiveness though. If you're so concerned about other people's feelings that you never speak up, then you essentially doom yourself to become a second-class citizen by always putting others above you.

I think I'm about to confuse you, so I want to make something clear. I don't disagree your point that we all embody these traits a little bit. Experiences with my father made into a person who genuinely tries to avoid confrontation (trait 1, agreeableness), I have a bad habit of taking certain slights against me personally when that wasn't the intention (trait 2, fragility), and I enjoy edgy jokes sometimes (trait 3, lack of empathy).

What you're failing to understand is that Wierd wasn't talking about traits, he was talking about full-blown archetypes of people. An agreeable person is not problem until they let serious evil go unchecked (censorship, racism, sexual harrasment, etc.). A fragile person is not a problem, until they start plotting to ruin the lives of innocent people (RIP Lindsay Ellis). An unemphatic person is not a problem, until they start to revel in the suffering they cause to others.

Where to draw the line has a little bit of wiggle-room, but not as much as you think. There's no need to split hairs.


Ninja:

To be fair, I was meaning it (incarceration) for the people that do the thing purposefully, joyfully, and knowingly, and do so with copious and ribald abandon.

You know, the people that think white nationalism is A-OK-SUPER.  et al.


Not the person who constantly slips "ma'am" at either men, or transmen, because they are used to dealing with a certain occupational class. (Happens to me at work all the time. Constantly called Ma'am, because nursing is a 99% female employee vocation)


No, the prescription was for people who use the N word, and get off on using it. It for people who get told "Please call me miss", and then gets in the person's face, and says "Sir" with a grotesque smile.


And, again, only after extensively verifying that the person is indeed, that kind of person.

What is your opinion on assholes whose douchebaggery lacks a political dimension? The people who bully just because? Do we give regular harassment a pass just because it isn't sexual harassment?

If you still feel like imprisoning douchebags, then I respect your conviction, but as a society we've agreed that prison is a bit too extreme of a punishment for that. Something definitely should be done, but why do you believe it has to be so harsh?

[wierd]

Because you cannot force change on a person that does not want to change.  (see basically every relationship where one partner thought they could change the other, if they just tried really REALLY hard.)

Since the people do not want to change, there is no other option left, but to prevent them from harming others, and creating more victims.  that is the actual purpose of incarceration. The notion that it is a punishment, or somehow a tool for justice, or worst of all, for rehabilitation, is completely bogus.

Incarceration is what it is-- Confinement of a person, or class of persons, to prevent that person or class of persons, from doing more harm to more people. THE END.

Naturally, once you take that philosophy to incarceration, you stop wanting to be "HARD ON CRIMINALS!", et al, and want the prison system to be as ethical and humanitarian as possible-- You have people that you have placed into that situation for the protection of the greater part of the society-- not to make their lives a living nightmare hell, or to subject them to forced labor, or to exploit them in some other fashion. (Doing so defeats the purpose; Its foxes running the henhouse.)

No. Instead, the prison system should be more like a gated community, that you dont leave. (the interesting discussion, would be about how you treat people then born inside the prison system. That's a much more thought provoking conversation.)


Unless you can invent a literal mind-control beam, and jump the shark in willingness to use it, incarceration is the only truly effective tool a society has for preventing the kinds of abuses that lead to the formation of the described group-2 individuals.  This is because the group 3 individuals, frankly, DO NOT want to change, and thus, NEVER WILL.

Its important to stress this:  incarceration is not a desirable tool. It is not a good tool. Its a bad tool. A tool you do not want to use, and should never want to use. Its a tool you get forced to use, and if you get forced into using it, better be damned sure first.

I say that is where the truly belligerent must go, because the alternative, is allowing them to seek new victims, and to ruin more lives. You cannot change them. You can only prevent thier access to potential victims.

[EuchreJack]

The great irony is that the people whom tend to get incarcerated are the ones that absolutely DO NOT want to be told what to do all the time. It's almost poetic.

@heydude6: Thanks for being cool. Hope I didn't get too much Class 3.

EuchreJack, you are correct that we all have some amount of each in us. Who has how much I know not.

What I do know, that it only matters when it eclipses one's reason.

When it is not "I would rather distance myself from this", but rather "make sure I can't be blamed for anything, at any cost"
When it is not "I would rather not be called X", but "You called me X, now you die"
When it is not "I will call you boy because you are significantly younger than me" but "I will call you boy because I know you want to be called girl"

The last ones have a name. Bullies. But since bullying is difficult to prove, people just ignore it instead. I agree with wierd, there should be a constant effort to prove or disprove bullying or any kind, and the bullies should be punished.

Ninjad by martinuzz: If you force them medication, give them straijackets, etc., you have imprisoned them. Just in a way where they are not considered responsible for their actions.

Unfortunately, reason is a limited resource. Stress saps it away, to the point that any of us can find ourselves victim to our baser impulses.

I'm worried about any policy of harsh treatment for suspected Assholes.  True Assholes are pretty good at making others look like Assholes and themselves as victims. It's mostly because they're willing to really work on it.
The best way to get arrested is to hang out with people whom have been arrested. They know how to get others arrested, and they love to share the pain.