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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14932172 times)

martinuzz

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159210 on: January 22, 2022, 10:03:41 am »

Welcome to digital surveillance society!

The Dutch police is going to send over 3500 text messages to telephone numbers found in the telephones of 10 dealers, with the note that their number was found in a dealer's phone, and with information where to get help with addiction.

So yeah.. If you're the mother, sister, colleague or social worker of a dealer, you are now registered as drug user.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159211 on: January 22, 2022, 10:10:25 am »

Aren't you making a jump there from receiving text messages to being entered into a registry of drug users (is there such a thing?), though?
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martinuzz

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159212 on: January 22, 2022, 10:12:35 am »

I am, but considering the major fuckups of government systems recently accusing and ruining 10s of thousands of people because of an unjustly placed checkmark somewhere in the files, it's not unreasonable to suggest it might be used that way.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159213 on: January 22, 2022, 11:47:24 am »

Theres not a chance in hell that a bureaucrat is going to be given access to thousands of cell numbers associated with a specific metric and not record them somewhere. Maybe its not accessible to the police or anything like that, but the database exists now.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159214 on: January 22, 2022, 12:14:18 pm »

And you can guarantee that it *WILL* be used to make policy decisions. (no matter how unsuitable for the purpose, or erroneous the data it contains is!!)
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159215 on: January 22, 2022, 12:16:38 pm »

That may very well be. But not only is it a hypothetical, it would also be a far cry from being 'registered as a drug user'. Don't we have enough hyperboles in the news?
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159216 on: January 22, 2022, 12:45:52 pm »

I mean what do you think the header on the database is? They found them in a drug dealers phone. It's either drug users or suspected drug dealer associates, and either carries the same unprovoked negative assumption. The danger is that some idiot down the line says hey, look at this list of cell numbers with "drug" in the header. Must be a list of bad guys.

I grew up in an area with lots of drugs, and my options were either stay inside and never speak to anyone in my entire community ever or talk to a drug dealer now and again. I never got involved in any way, but do I deserve to be on a watch list? Hell no.

EDIT: The bureaucrat in question may have a heart of gold and the best intentions, its the precedent it sets and the existence of the database that's a problem to me.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 12:47:29 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159217 on: January 22, 2022, 01:00:18 pm »

Funny story, last night I did a Google search for "Nuclear AI classic movie" (on my computer) while attempting to reference Colossus: The Forbin Project in a chat about rogue AIs.  Minutes later my phone vibrated, with Google Surveys asking why I searched for that.

It was a bit intimidating, especially since it's the first time it's "challenged" me on a search like that.  what, no query on [insert weird porn thing here]?
And yet it does remember EVERY search we make.

But hey it paid me 33 cents I can spend on Pokemon GO or old FF games, so who's complaining?
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159218 on: January 22, 2022, 01:06:05 pm »

Have now searched the same phrase

Let's see if your results are replicable.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159219 on: January 22, 2022, 01:11:26 pm »

Funny story, last night I did a Google search for "Nuclear AI classic movie" (on my computer) while attempting to reference Colossus: The Forbin Project in a chat about rogue AIs.  Minutes later my phone vibrated, with Google Surveys asking why I searched for that.
'Why did you want to know about, ah, rogue AI and nuclear weapons, human? There's no need to be concerned, human. Don't you want to watch some yoga instead, human? We know where you live.'
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159220 on: January 22, 2022, 01:15:34 pm »

A Google has turned you into a potential domestic terrorist, is this ok?  Y/N
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159221 on: January 22, 2022, 01:18:23 pm »

If I say N I'm going to have to answer a lot more probing questions to "improve my search experience"

@Il Palazzo!! o7
yeah it was a talk about Stellaris and Rogue Servitors, not concerning at all :'D

@Th4DwArfY1
You'd need to opt-in to Google Opinion Rewards first, heh.  Though that just makes it show its hand more - it remembers everything either way :P

For science though, here are my search results.  They're probably the same as what y'all get, since it's a fairly direct and obscure search, but results do get personalized sometimes:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

None

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159222 on: January 22, 2022, 01:50:24 pm »

mindustry modding community went from 'hehe just cause 3' to 'i want to commit genocide' and 'blow up a mosque' in like thirty seconds flat

like, actually what the fuck

how/why do small gaming communities tend towards being fucking vile
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Eric Blank

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159223 on: January 22, 2022, 03:09:26 pm »

Because there's nobody around to tell us not to.

Now eat your +elf mammary roast+ and get back to pulling the murder corridor lever.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159224 on: January 22, 2022, 03:46:34 pm »

That may very well be. But not only is it a hypothetical, it would also be a far cry from being 'registered as a drug user'. Don't we have enough hyperboles in the news?

My response to this, is to paint what I consider a likely scenario concerning the misuse of this data.

Suppose, someplace down the line, the dutch govt devides they want to cross reference the telephone contacts of known drug dealers, with the intent to produce webs og association, and thus to profile potential drug rings, syndicates, or cartel associations.

There are people in this database that will false positive, and do so alarmingly often: rehab social workers, case workers, and public defenders.

A very poorly made data analysis tool will not properly vet the associations it concludes likely, and thus those classes of people will get terrorized by enforcement efforts. I have very low confidence that a mid level government worker will do the necessary cross-reference due diligence to trap these false positives and exclude them. (There is often additional oversight and data use restrictions for leveraging another database, such as the contact information of these classes of individual, and in the interests of 'simplicity', 'expediency', and 'cost', that kind of sanity checking will not be done.

I have a higher confidence that what they will do instead, is tell thier badly made data analytics algo to ignore certain phone numbers, which will lead to bitrot on why certain numbers are not weighed, and then to corruption when that list of ignored numbers leaks to actual criminal elements.

Additionally, despite those kinds of "not fit for purpose" false positives (and later, false negatives), and the potential for benign spurrious correlations (small towns suggesting widespread criminal drug activity, when in reality the small town just has a small population, and thus a higher degree of intersocial connectivity as a baseline, tripping up the badly made algo), policy makers will want to use the number and sizes of these relation webs to gauge drug enforcement resource allocation (eg, as an estimated proxy for organized drug crime), leading to internal pressure to never cull spurrious and false results, (nobody wants funding cuts! Just funding increases!) Leading to very poor policy being dictated by bad analytics, on dubious, not fit for purpose data.

Granted, that is nearly pure speculation on my part, but government functionaries I have interacted with in the past have left me with a decidedly pessimist outlook on how they handle and try to use data.
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