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[heydude6]

My answer to the whole teen voter issue is this. Back in high school we had a mock mayoral election, the trump-equivalent won. This is in contrast to the real election where the adults elected someone reasonable. This was before trump was even a thing btw.

My point is that young people are very easily charmed by populism and “quirkinesses”. If you asked a student about their thought process during a student council election, you would know that they shouldn’t touch real elections with a 10-foot pole.

[hector13]

It would at least open the door to education on political systems and how they work in the leadup to elections, which I don’t ever recall happening when I was at school.

That can be done independently. Most adults can be responsible enough to vote responsibly, with those that aren't being pretty negligible realistically speaking. It's a matter of educating them.

Like in school for example? :p

Kids can't. Their judgement is biologically clouded. It doesn't matter how well you educate them, most only care how good the politician's Instagram is.

What are your thoughts on pregnant/menstruating people voting?

People going through hormone therapy for whatever reason?

People with mental illnesses?

People suffering effects/withdrawals from prescription meds, or even just hangovers?

Also your drug argument falls apart because most people aren't constantly high so unless you go to vote while high I don't see how that is relevant.

I was referring more to caffeine and booze. Both influence how you think when using them in the short-term, and both influence sleep, which will also influence how you think.

Also any tolerance inducing thing like nicotine that can affect how you feel if you don’t get it into your system.

As an addendum to the biological clouding stuff above, should we thus also say people who are using anything that clouds thinking to also not be able to vote?

What's like a first world problem but in the first world? There are bigger issues for you guys than squeakers not being able to vote because muh representation.

I’m just engaging in the topic at hand; I think young people are just like old people.

My answer to the whole teen voter issue is this. Back in high school we had a mock mayoral election, the trump-equivalent won. This is in contrast to the real election where the adults elected someone reasonable. This was before trump was even a thing btw.

My point is that young people are very easily charmed by populism and “quirkinesses”. If you asked a student about their thought process during a student council election, you would know that they shouldn’t touch real elections with a 10-foot pole.

Considering populists are getting voted in almost everywhere- and if America is anything to go by, able to convince people to attempt to violently overthrow a government based on utter nonsense - old folks are not exactly the best at seeing through bullshit either.

There’s a also a significant difference between a mock election with (presumably) zero consequences and a legitimate election that will affect life going forward. As mentioned above, young folks are in prime position to be educated on how their votes can shape the world around them. Teacher in the class with that mock election perhaps should have followed up with something so the students understood that.

[Rolan7]

Considering populists are getting voted in almost everywhere- and if America is anything to go by, able to convince people to attempt to violently overthrow a government based on utter nonsense - old folks are not exactly the best at seeing through bullshit either.

This!
I'd lean towards 16. For all their information-age oddities, the kids do seem to care about issues and I don't agree that they're necessarily more populist. Particularly compared to your typical straight-ticket voter (would be nice if those lazy ballots counted less... obviously not serious, but they're part of this team-sport mindset. Vote with nuance and vote local!)

Anyway 16 year olds need voting power because they have an interest in climate change that older voters lack.

[martinuzz]

The idiocracy of the dumb adult masses is no argument to expand the voter base with even more irresponsible hormone bombs, of whom there is scientific basis to believe their brains are not developed enough yet to be sensible (or even comprehend the extent of what it means to be sensible).

Pregnant and bleeding women are fine though. Irrationality =/= irresponsiblilty.

[Egan_BW]

scientific basis to believe their brains are not developed enough yet to be sensible

Rather "not fully developed". Being Sensible isn't really something science can quantify. I mean, I'd agree with you to an extent, but you can't quite say that science proves that kids are insensible, because science can't tell you what sensibility is.

[hector13]

The idiocracy of the dumb adult masses is no argument to expand the voter base with even more irresponsible hormone bombs, of whom there is scientific basis to believe their brains are not developed enough yet to be sensible (or even comprehend the extent of what it means to be sensible).

Pregnant and bleeding women are fine though. Irrationality =/= irresponsiblilty.

I was more suggesting that adults being developed idiots means that kids being less-developed idiots isn’t an argument against giving them the vote.

The pregnancy thing was a point against MtF’s suggestion that young folks being biologically clouded due to puberty means they shouldn’t be allowed to vote, as there are plenty of other biological things that also influence judgment, like menstruation and mental illnesses and the things people decide to put in their body, etc.

Just to be clear, I don’t think it should affect whether they get to vote, but then again I suffer from mental health problems and I like my wife.

I don’t get to vote (at least in national elections) as I’m foreign, though, which is a different kettle of fish.

[martinuzz]

but then again I suffer from mental health problems and I like my wife.

Age old chicken and egg question 

[LordBaal]

Also the issue is not alone on the voters, but the quality of canditates.

If it depended on me no one would ever be able to male political propaganda, no parties and every single pulbic office would need a trougthly verificantion of everything, with high education standars and/or proven worthy experience in the relevant field (administration/engineering...). Then every single candidate would need to post its arguments and goverment plan on journals and the web, along with their verified curriculum. With a series of mandatory debates with standarized questions more than an open debate.

Any deviation without a good damn reason on the proposed goverment plan ends up on being evicted from the office.

Or something along the lines, you know, a true and verified meritocracy as much sanitized as possible. If you remove the "party" and aglomeration, you force people to actually invest time on getting to know the candidates to chose one of their liking. Public administration is NOT a sport, its absurd people treat it as such.

[EuchreJack]

Also the issue is not alone on the voters, but the quality of canditates.

Oh yeah.  Sad truth is, few people want to be candidates.  Public Speaking still outranks Death as the most commonly held fear.
And you gotta get the money to run from somewhere.
And you gotta be someone that others actually like.
And you gotta be someone that has "put the time in".

So, its easy to say, "We Need Better Candidates", but the sad reality is that sometimes its the Lesser of Two Evils.

[Egan_BW]

Of course, a meritocracy requires rules to quantify who has merit or not. And inevitably those rules will be set by those who are currently in power, who will make sure the rules benefit themselves. Since the initial state set by Founding Father Baal just needs you to be educated and to get people to vote for you based on your platform, neither of which necessarily keep out anybody willing to do a corruption, wouldn't this be immediately perverted? Sure, you have to post your actual platform online for everyone to see, but you don't actually have to follow it once you're in charge. Even if you people hate you for breaking your promises, nobody will be able to challenge you democratically, since you can just delegitimize whatever school your opponents went to. In fact, the only legitimate education is the one run by yourself!

[LordBaal]

Any deviation of a set goverment plan would see you out of office. Ie. We are going to grant hawai independence. But a meteor just erased it from the pacific, so we cant anymore.

[Egan_BW]

Any deviation of a set goverment plan would see you out of office.

By whom?

[LordBaal]

Any deviation of a set goverment plan would see you out of office.

By whom?

By the whole system, just like right now someone that commit a crime get out of office.

We are talking about an hypotetical fantasy you know?

[Frumple]

Any deviation of a set goverment plan would see you out of office.

By whom?

By the whole system, just like right now someone that commit a crime get out of office.

That distant sound of incredulous laughter you're hearing is coming from my soul, loud enough you're able to hear it across the gulf of mexico and however many miles inland you are

[MaxTheFox]

It would at least open the door to education on political systems and how they work in the leadup to elections, which I don’t ever recall happening when I was at school.

That can be done independently. Most adults can be responsible enough to vote responsibly, with those that aren't being pretty negligible realistically speaking. It's a matter of educating them.

Like in school for example? :p

[/quote]
Sure teach them. But don't let the squeakers vote. Also I meant adults.

What are your thoughts on pregnant/menstruating people voting?

People going through hormone therapy for whatever reason?

People with mental illnesses?

People suffering effects/withdrawals from prescription meds, or even just hangovers?

1. They tend to not be clouded in the same way or to the same extent as kids. I can't really imagine a pregnant woman voting for someone just because their Tiktok has better music.

2. Ditto.

3. Depends on the case, though it's hard to enforce either way.

4. Ditto.

Not to mention those groups even together, in cases that are severe enough to impair voting, are negligible compared to under-16 kids.

As an addendum to the biological clouding stuff above, should we thus also say people who are using anything that clouds thinking to also not be able to vote?

No, partly because it's a potential slippery slope to withdraw voting rights.

I’m just engaging in the topic at hand; I think young people are just like old people.

If you mean "adults" you think wrong. If you mean "senile people", then yes. But again, slippery slope.

Considering populists are getting voted in almost everywhere- and if America is anything to go by, able to convince people to attempt to violently overthrow a government based on utter nonsense - old folks are not exactly the best at seeing through bullshit either.

This!
I'd lean towards 16. For all their information-age oddities, the kids do seem to care about issues and I don't agree that they're necessarily more populist. Particularly compared to your typical straight-ticket voter (would be nice if those lazy ballots counted less... obviously not serious, but they're part of this team-sport mindset. Vote with nuance and vote local!)

Anyway 16 year olds need voting power because they have an interest in climate change that older voters lack.

Fair enough; I wouldn't support but I wouldn't riot over this.

The idiocracy of the dumb adult masses is no argument to expand the voter base with even more irresponsible hormone bombs, of whom there is scientific basis to believe their brains are not developed enough yet to be sensible (or even comprehend the extent of what it means to be sensible).

Pregnant and bleeding women are fine though. Irrationality =/= irresponsiblilty.

I was more suggesting that adults being developed idiots means that kids being less-developed idiots isn’t an argument against giving them the vote.

The pregnancy thing was a point against MtF’s suggestion that young folks being biologically clouded due to puberty means they shouldn’t be allowed to vote, as there are plenty of other biological things that also influence judgment, like menstruation and mental illnesses and the things people decide to put in their body, etc.

Just to be clear, I don’t think it should affect whether they get to vote, but then again I suffer from mental health problems and I like my wife.

I don’t get to vote (at least in national elections) as I’m foreign, though, which is a different kettle of fish.

1. But it is, adults being irresponsible is a matter of not knowing, kids being irresponsible is basically hard-wired into them. No amount of education will help until they mature.

2. See above, it's not exactly what I meant.
Seriously, I met many 12, 13, 11-year-olds over many years. I know how shitty most are. I wouldn't let them anywhere near a ballot box.