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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14524106 times)

LordBaal

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153525 on: September 07, 2020, 02:29:25 pm »

I thougth you were talking about a power plant for your house.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
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pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153526 on: September 07, 2020, 02:46:15 pm »

oh, i -think- it mentioned being a 2
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153527 on: September 07, 2020, 04:36:55 pm »

Race isn't completely arbitrary. It's basic evolutionary theory. Living in different places develops different features. These features helped survival in one way or another and became typical for certain areas. A native of Japan does not look like a native of Uganda. That's the hard, physical reality. Though of course many people are hard to place in one race or another.
They're hard to place because race isn't anything more than a social category. Having a certain skin color or certain facial features is not a race in any scientific sense - there is zero genetic or physiological basis for race which can be articulated.

Also, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with survival. Natural selection won't remove benign traits, and regardless the genetic drift between all humans is relatively small. It's small enough
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The following comparison may sound offensive. Apologies if so.
Different dog breeds are a thing. Very obviously. Crossing breeds will produce a mongrel who is hard to categorise. That does not mean dog breeds are completely arbitrary. Of course, human variation is more complex than that of dogs, considering we don't have kennel clubs to impose certain ideals, but the principal is the same.

Here's another argument: Just because there are blurred lines between races does not mean races do not exist.

Dog breeds are pretty much primitive genetic engineering and are once again something that can be placed at the foot of human categorization. All this tells me is to make sure fascists can't get their hands on gene engines lest they try to do the same to human beings. Regardless, the dogs do not seem to recognize their breeds in any way even with our engineering - which makes sense, because race is a social category. Were it only that we had the wisdom of dogs.

These two arguments are not of much meaning, since you can't define what race is in any objective way, which I know you cannot do since there is no scientific basis for it. This can be seen in how you leave unsaid any conclusion beyond "race exists" - you're not getting cold feet on me, are you?

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The idea wasn't invented in the late 1600s. It began to be explored in a scientific manner at that time. Something doesn't need a modern intellectual framework to exist. For instance, did the world explode into roundness as Galileo/Ptolemy began spreading their ideas? No. Sailors knew just by observing the curvature of the earth, but Galileo in particular helped develop a scholarly discussion surrounding it.
Sailors also thought there were sea monsters and that the boat would be cursed if you let a woman onboard. Casual observation does not have rigor whether it is correct or not.

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Likewise, before racial science began down its largely-misguided path, the medieval world explored concepts of race. Usually in an equally misguided way - namely by portraying them as monsters. Mongols, Jews and black people were all discussed and categorised as distinct races.
Before this, the Ancient Greeks had a fairly decent concept of race. They believed that it was tied to the environment.

I think one of the main things to consider is that race didn't matter as much in the more distant past. You lived in your polis, village, town, tepee, hut and interacted with foreigners only rarely. When you DID interact with other races, it was like Xenophon meeting the Carduchians in the retreat of the Ten Thousand - they were "a fierce, war-loving race, who had never been conquered. Once the Great King had sent into their country an army of 120,000 men, to subdue them, but of all that great host not one had ever seen his home again."

Even were the ancients completely ignorant of race - which they obviously are not - that's no reason to assume that it does not exist. We understand selection and the formation of races in a way which was impossible at their time. They saw races, named them monsters, and that was all.
We see races. Understand how the environment led to certain mutations and differences. Then we categorise.
And they were wrong then, too! The ancient Greek-Roman race pseudoscience didn't call everyone monsters - in particular, they thought people from Africa were the best doctors and philosophers, but too meek and peaceful to resist them. Conversely, the pink-skinned barbarians to the north were somewhat monstrous, but made good tools for the Empire once conquered and civilized - that warlike Germanic blood, you know?

Yes, it is only on the fine waters of the Mediterranean that you can get the just-right porridge combination of knowledge and war, and thus through the race enigma form a rightful racial hierarchy of people only from the city of Rome, the true master race of the world unless you also move to Rome too.
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And boy do we categorise badly, with generalisations galore. But at least we know there is SOMETHING there to categorise in the first place.
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Similarly, transgender people are just people. The difference between male and female, despite physical differences, is minimal. What is desired is to be treated a certain way. Someone whose sex is male wants to be treated like someone whose sex is female. Hence dressing in certain ways, walking and acting certain ways, having surgery and taking medication to prevent beard growth. (Actually not sure about that last, but I think that's part of the process?)

To sum up, I guess:
Race is physical. But it has cultural implications which some wish to appropriate.
Sex is physical. But it has cultural implications which some wish to appropriate.

So, to ask my question again, why say that transgender-ism is a thing but transracial-ism is obviously something to be ridiculed? Both seem to be exactly the same to me, just applied to different physical attributes.
For one thing, it's gender that trans people are trans over, not sex.

And for another, because people don't wither and die if someone tries to force them not to be black, because people don't do that sort of thing, because race is a social category and gender isn't.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153528 on: September 07, 2020, 04:39:20 pm »

there is zero genetic or physiological basis for race which can be articulated.
This is literally just a lie. Geneticists and anthropologists do it all the time. Have you looked at any human phylogenetic trees lately?

ETA, followup question: Have you ever heard of sickle-cell anemia?

ETA again, let me clarify further: The genetic separation, as measured by Fst, between dog breeds is roughly equal to that between perceived races. An average African is about as related to an average East Asian as a bulldog is to a yorkie. They share obvious similarities, and one is clearly not better or worse than another, but they are distinctly different and can be discerned trivially.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 04:45:12 pm by Maximum Spin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153529 on: September 07, 2020, 04:46:23 pm »

You cannot match those genes and ancestry to any categorization of race. This shouldn't be much of a surprise, as the identical ancestor point for all humans is relatively recent and race pseudoscience came before our understanding of genetics. We're also probably going to massively accelerate the identical ancestor point eventually as well, now that global travel is commonplace.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153530 on: September 07, 2020, 04:47:31 pm »

You cannot match those genes and ancestry to any categorization of race. This shouldn't be much of a surprise, as the identical ancestor point for all humans is relatively recent and race pseudoscience came before our understanding of genetics. We're also probably going to massively accelerate the identical ancestor point eventually as well, now that global travel is commonplace.
You literally can and people have. It has been done. I don't know what else to tell you.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153531 on: September 07, 2020, 04:49:56 pm »

You literally cannot - the genes responsible for what is called race can be freely lifted and swapped in one generation, and have done so many times. This is why lots of white assholes in America get the lovely surprise that they're not white by their own definition, because they've got a black family member a couple generations back that they didn't know about and didn't inherit much appearance from.

And this is even using 23 and Me's questionable dedication to genetic science, let alone true genetics.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153532 on: September 07, 2020, 04:52:18 pm »

You literally cannot - the genes responsible for what is called race can be freely lifted and swapped in one generation, and have done so many times. This is why lots of white assholes in America get the lovely surprise that they're not white by their own definition, because they've got a black family member a couple generations back that they didn't know about.

And this is even using 23 and Me's questionable dedication to genetic science, let alone true genetics.
There are multiple genes responsible for what is called race, and those people are what we call "multiracial". Nevertheless, there is a definable Fst between African and European populations and you can trivially confirm, for example, that people of African descent have a higher proportion of preterm births regardless of socioeconomic status and other confounding factors, or that people of European descent are orders of magnitude more likely to have lactose tolerance.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153533 on: September 07, 2020, 04:56:44 pm »

Now you're just cherrypicking - people who believe in race aren't defending the glorious legacy of lactose tolerance. Sure, you can delineate a genetic tree of Hapsburg chins or whatever else have you, but that can't be grouped beyond itself into a grander category called race.

It's jumbled into a chaos of many generations, hence why you use "African descent" rather than "black", because many people of African descent are not black, and even that is too vague - not just because plenty of people in Africa aren't black by their own or your own metrics, but because this lineage of preterm birth genes can't be contained into a distinct race even including people who are thought of as black and live in Africa.

And if you can't even go with "African descent", if you have to cast an even wider net than that, then what even is race from a genetic standpoint? It's nothing.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 04:58:27 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153534 on: September 07, 2020, 04:59:01 pm »

Now you're just cherrypicking - people who believe in race aren't defending the glorious legacy of lactose tolerance. Sure, you can delineate a genetic tree of Hapsburg chins or whatever else have you, but that can't be grouped beyond itself into a grander category called race.

It's jumbled into a chaos of many generations, hence why you use "African descent" rather than "black", because many people of African descent are not black, and even that is too vague - not just because plenty of people in Africa aren't black by their own or your own metrics, but because this lineage of preterm birth genes can't be contained into a distinct race including people who are thought of as black and live in Africa.
I'm not sure what the hell definition of race you're using if "people of African descent" is not a race. But more importantly,
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but that can't be grouped beyond itself into a grander category called race.
Why not? A race is just a really big family tree that breeds within itself more often than outside itself.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153535 on: September 07, 2020, 05:05:43 pm »

I'm not sure what the hell definition of race you're using if "people of African descent" is not a race.
Are white South Africans black because they're virtually all of African descent by now?
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Why not? A race is just a really big family tree that breeds within itself more often than outside itself.
That is not what people think race is. "Hapsburg" is not a race, for example.

There is a crossroad here, but both roads lead to hell. Pick your poison:

A. Race is based on appearance.

B. Race is based on genetics.

If A: Humans who appear similar are not necessarily genetically related, ergo race is social and the concept collapses.

If B: Humans who are genetically related are not necessarily similar in appearance, and also most people do not define their race by the results of ancestry testing as per my previous post. But even so, if you go with the genetic race than a category like say "black people" consists of people from every conventionally defined race because of genetic links, even though those people are not considered black by much of anyone until people start arguing about genetics and lineage. Ergo, race is social and the concept collapses.

You can't have it both ways. The social race and the genetic race contradict each other, as well as occasionally contradicting themselves. This sort of thing happens when a concept lacks validity and can mean whatever a person wants it to mean.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153536 on: September 07, 2020, 05:08:56 pm »

I'm not sure what the hell definition of race you're using if "people of African descent" is not a race.
Are white South Africans black because they're virtually all of African descent by now?
No, they're multiracial.

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Why not? A race is just a really big family tree that breeds within itself more often than outside itself.
That is not what people think race is. "Hapsburg" is not a race, for example.
It is an actual commonplace definition used in anthropology. "Hapsburg" is not a race because it isn't "really big", but if there were enough of them and they retained their genetic distance from other groups, they would be.
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SOLDIER First

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153537 on: September 07, 2020, 05:11:36 pm »

Race exists because humans created the concept in order to qualify themselves and others based on their features. It doesn't have any scientific or biological basis. People with specific sets of traits being more or less likely to have specific other traits along with them does have scientific basis, but that's because of how DNA works, not because humans evolved neatly into groups of "Native American", "Western European", "North African", "West Asian"...

Biology informs race, not the other way around, like one's gender (if you subscribe to the binary). It's a construct.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 05:13:17 pm by Sentient Bowtie »
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153538 on: September 07, 2020, 05:14:47 pm »

Race exists because humans created the concept in order to qualify themselves and others based on their features. It doesn't have any scientific or biological basis.
Observing the world around you and developing categories based on what you see is what "a scientific basis" is.

Furthermore, geneticists later find that the actual genetic differences with people line up with the traditional categories pretty reliably, because people generally noticed differences that really existed, like "have wildly different skintones".

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not because humans evolved neatly into groups of "Native American", "Western European", "North African", "West Asian"...
Well, in a manner of speaking, they did, because those groups were largely separate from each other reproductively, and therefore evolved in slightly different ways (cf: malaria and sickle-cell anemia).
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #153539 on: September 07, 2020, 05:21:30 pm »

I remember sickle cell anemia is what happens when a recessive gene is found twice that messes with the shape of red blood cells, if that recessive gene is paired with the dominant gene, the shape changes in such a way that helps resist malaria, which I guess is what you’re saying near the end of the post? I think ethnicity is the term for the different genetics of various human groups and race can sometimes refer to ethnicities but sometimes doesn’t because of error. Please correct any mistakes I’ve made
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