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[bloop_bleep]

I'm not entirely sure what point you're arguing, here. Do you mean hunting "isn't exactly what you'd call some great improvement" over farming?   
If so, I agree. But at least the hunted creatures presumably lived their lives, free, in their natural habitat beforehand - just look at whaling and the huge outcry about it, which is really kind of ridiculous when you consider half the people protesting it probably go home and tuck into a ham sandwich or some shit.

No idea what your second paragraph is trying to say.
The Earth is overpopulated to the point of being pretty much unsustainable? I don't think anyone would seriously argue against that.

To me farming and killing non-self-aware animals is completely ethical, given that they aren't even aware of their own pain. Most farmed animals aren't even aware that they're in captivity, so they're completely indifferent to whether they live their lives "free" or on a farm.

[Doomblade187]

To be fair, whaling is pretty shit. Most animals, you shoot them once or slit their throat. Whaling? Well, whales are too big for that, so you shoot them with a harpoon, let it tire itself out trying to swim away while it's got the harpoon stuck in it, then pull it out of the water.

So, giant fishing?

Whales are more intelligent though.

[scourge728]

I'm not entirely sure what point you're arguing, here. Do you mean hunting "isn't exactly what you'd call some great improvement" over farming?   
If so, I agree. But at least the hunted creatures presumably lived their lives, free, in their natural habitat beforehand - just look at whaling and the huge outcry about it, which is really kind of ridiculous when you consider half the people protesting it probably go home and tuck into a ham sandwich or some shit.

No idea what your second paragraph is trying to say.
The Earth is overpopulated to the point of being pretty much unsustainable? I don't think anyone would seriously argue against that.

The two big ethical differences between farming and whaling is that 1. Whales are far more intelligent and 2. Cows, pigs and chickens are nowhere near extinct, while whales all (or at least almost all) were at one point and many are still at risk today

[Loud Whispers]

To be fair, whaling is pretty shit. Most animals, you shoot them once or slit their throat. Whaling? Well, whales are too big for that, so you shoot them with a harpoon, let it tire itself out trying to swim away while it's got the harpoon stuck in it, then pull it out of the water.

His motions plainly denoted his extreme exhaustion. In most land animals there are certain valves or flood-gates in many of their veins, whereby when wounded, the blood is in some degree at least instantly shut off in certain directions. Not so with the whale; one of whose peculiarities it is to have an entire non-valvular structure of the blood-vessels, so that when pierced even by so small a point as a harpoon, a deadly drain is at once begun upon his whole arterial system; and when this is heightened by the extraordinary pressure of water at a great distance below the surface, his life may be said to pour from him in incessant streams. Yet so vast is the quantity of blood in him, and so distant and numerous its interior fountains, that he will keep thus bleeding and bleeding for a considerable period; even as in a drought a river will flow, whose source is in the well-springs of far-off and undiscernible hills.

[Tack]

Yeah I think it's a conservation thing.
Probably also intelligence, but it's weird that the intelligence of an animal isn't a firm line but a sliding scale. Is monkey too smart for me to eat? Probably. Dog? Maybe also. Or maybe I just don't like eating carnivores.
I've worked with sheep before and consider them irredeemably stupid. Do I do that because it's true, or because it makes them easier to eat? Cows are fairly smart, but I still eat them.
Turns out people are just predators. We eat what is easy and tastes good, just like any other predator. We're just self-aware enough to put abstract rules and limits on it.


Which begs a question of how many predatory ominovres actually exist in nature.

[Dunamisdeos]

Bears, chimps.... a large number of birds that are predatory and subsist on meat will also regularly eat plant matter...

Plenty of those around depending on what acceptable ratio of plant/animal matter you consider to be omnivorous.

[Frumple]

I mean. Most of them? They're omnivores by dint of predating on something, so long as they're not strict carrion eaters I guess.

They just aren't very many apex predator ones tooling around that I can recall.

Now, if you're talking primarily predatory, I don't think there's many of those (or at least non-insectivore ones? Maybe fish eaters, too.). Most of the point of being an omnivore is being able to eat whatever can't get away from you at the moment, and the stuff that fits that category tends to be plant life of some sort or another so the diet tends to be supplemented by meat rather than dominated by it, current environment allowing.

[KittyTac]

I honestly don't care too much about the quality of life of barely-aware farm animals. I mean, I could, and I realize what vegans are getting at, but meat is delicious.

[TD1]

Oh the arrogance of man.

"Barely aware."

Humbug.

[hector13]

Oh the arrogance of man.

"Barely aware."

Humbug.

You are much more polite than I was going to be regarding this, I shall defer to you, at least for the initial reacting part.

To me farming and killing non-self-aware animals is completely ethical, given that they aren't even aware of their own pain. Most farmed animals aren't even aware that they're in captivity, so they're completely indifferent to whether they live their lives "free" or on a farm.

Could you... uh... maybe expand on this a bit? With, like, science or something? ‘cause I’m pretty sure animals are aware of their pain. Mammals, certainly, which I think is what you’re referring to.

[bloop_bleep]

To me farming and killing non-self-aware animals is completely ethical, given that they aren't even aware of their own pain. Most farmed animals aren't even aware that they're in captivity, so they're completely indifferent to whether they live their lives "free" or on a farm.

Could you... uh... maybe expand on this a bit? With, like, science or something? ‘cause I’m pretty sure animals are aware of their pain. Mammals, certainly, which I think is what you’re referring to.

Cows, sheep, etc. are not self-aware. They do not have conscious minds. Their pain is simply the level of a certain molecule in their brain; it is not, on top of that, a conscious feeling like in humans, because again, they do not have conscious minds.

[hector13]

To me farming and killing non-self-aware animals is completely ethical, given that they aren't even aware of their own pain. Most farmed animals aren't even aware that they're in captivity, so they're completely indifferent to whether they live their lives "free" or on a farm.

Could you... uh... maybe expand on this a bit? With, like, science or something? ‘cause I’m pretty sure animals are aware of their pain. Mammals, certainly, which I think is what you’re referring to.

Cows, sheep, etc. are not self-aware. They do not have conscious minds. Their pain is simply the level of a certain molecule in their brain; it is not, on top of that, a conscious feeling like in humans, because again, they do not have conscious minds.

What do you mean by “conscious mind”?

Could you define “pain” for me, also. From this you seem to consider it as an emotional response, rather than physical.

If so, how do you know the animal, on an emotional level, does not experience pain? I mean we know a human has emotions. “I am happy” “I am sad” “I am filled with apoplectic rage”. How would one measure emotions, or the lack thereof, in animals?

[Arcvasti]

I mean, farm animals[barring pigs] definitely aren't sapient and aren't very bright either. That doesn't mean that they're incapable of feeling pain. Whether we should actually care about them feeling pain is one matter, but saying that they're not even aware of their own pain is beyond baffling.

I personally think that keeping animals in order to eat them sucks for them, but not as much as being permanently extinct would. And make no mistake, that's exactly what the other option is. Other people are free to disagree with me as I sit atop my chickenbone throne, munching on bacon as I pet my cat.

re: Animals not having a consciousness. There's really no reason at all to conclude that? Obviously the only consciousness you can be sure exists is your own, but I doubt even you would say that other humans are not self-aware and thus do not "truly" feel pain. Presumably you consider other humans to be conscious by examining the symptoms of your own consciousness and seeing them in other humans. The thing is, those same symptoms are present in animals too. They're capable of forming attachments, learning behaviour and even of committing suicide in the face of grief. I can see an argument for insects lacking consciousness since they're so alien to us mammals, but it's incredibly stupid to look at beings very much like us and declare that they are nothing more then meat robots simply because they're really really dumb.

FAKEEDIT:

I'd think that apoplectic rage at least would be easy to measure since it'd logically entail an apoplexy, which is something you can detect medically.

[bloop_bleep]

The conscious mind is defined as the part of the brain that is responsible for self-awareness. There exist scientific tests to determine whether animals are self-aware, like the famous mirror test. Sheep, cows and almost literally every other animal except for dolphins and apes fail these tests. In this case I do not think that farm animals are truly fully alive like humans are, and furthermore are unable to experience suffering like humans can, and so ultimately I do not care very much about the activation of a whatever neural pattern in their brains corresponds to "pain", which really only exists as an evolutionary mechanism to stop the organisms from harming themselves.

[KittyTac]

The conscious mind is defined as the part of the brain that is responsible for self-awareness. There exist scientific tests to determine whether animals are self-aware, like the famous mirror test. Sheep, cows and almost literally every other animal except for dolphins and apes fail these tests. In this case I do not think that farm animals are truly fully alive like humans are, and furthermore are unable to experience suffering like humans can, and so ultimately I do not care very much about the activation of a whatever neural pattern in their brains corresponds to "pain", which really only exists as an evolutionary mechanism to stop the organisms from harming themselves.

This.