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[wierd]

The DNC has not yet stated, and the GOP has not yet played such a hand. (It would be suicidal at this juncture.)


I am personally hoping for a return of Sanders, but that is probably not going to happen.

[Kagus]

The DNC has not yet stated, and the GOP has not yet played such a hand. (It would be suicidal at this juncture.)


I am personally hoping for a return of Sanders, but that is probably not going to happen.

Now there's a man who cares about his appearance!

*Daydreams about Bern-San's wispy white locks, like clouds on a string...

[KittyTac]

I have noticed that the alt-right became much more active after Trump. I guess they will calm down if the dude loses the election. Or they will blame Russia/China and get even more riled up.

[Tack]

I'm starting to have some issues with socialism. I can't find a way in which it... I guess works. Even the Democratic-Socialist countries which still have freedom and free information seem to fall behind in brute technological progress and GDP.

[George_Chickens]

Socialism is when Scandinavian governments do good things, and the more good things the Scandinavian governments do, the more socialister they are.

[KittyTac]

I believe that pure socialism is unsustainable.

[CABL]

I believe that pure socialism is unsustainable.

Majority of the leftist people doesn't call for the pure socialism, though: Only for regulated capitalism and some socialist policies, like free healthcare.

[KittyTac]

I believe that pure socialism is unsustainable.

Majority of the leftist people doesn't call for the pure socialism, though: Only for regulated capitalism and some socialist policies, like free healthcare.

That is actually sustainable.

[wierd]

I'm starting to have some issues with socialism. I can't find a way in which it... I guess works. Even the Democratic-Socialist countries which still have freedom and free information seem to fall behind in brute technological progress and GDP.

Let's restructure this observation so that it takes the form of an analogy.

"I'm starting to have some issues with generalism. I can't find a way in which it..  I guess works.  Even the neo-generalist animals which still have vestiges of specialist features seem to fall behind in brute efficiency and environmental adaptation."


EG, when you have a group that specializes almost exclusively on worship of "the free market", and "innovative cost savings", with emphasis on wealth generation--- vs groups that are more focused on overall health of a society instead of how much money it can make, and how quickly/efficiently, it makes no sense to complain that the latter does not perform with the same caliber of performance, in the specialized metrics of the specialized former.


For many of the same reasons that "Pure generalism" in an organism is untenable, "pure socialism" is also untenable.  The ideal is some degree of specialization, with enough generalization to be able to survive an upset of the status quo, without being either so generalized that you are weighed down with unneeded (and expensive) survival kit in environments where it is not needed--- while also not being so hyperspecialized that a 1 degree change in temperature results in species wide extinction.

Similar story with capitalism vs socialism.  Pure capitalism is so hyperspecialized on economic growth that it cannot cope with the reality that it is unsustainable/will cause massive planetary biosphere destruction along with massive wealth disparities that destroy the population.

Pure socialism is so generalized in how it idealizes the ability to selflessly redistribute resources, and optimistic in how tragedy of the commons will not occur that cannot sustain itself in the face of more specialized systems that are vastly more efficient.


The perfect mix is somewhere in the middle, on both things.

[Rowanas]

I'm starting to have some issues with socialism. I can't find a way in which it... I guess works. Even the Democratic-Socialist countries which still have freedom and free information seem to fall behind in brute technological progress and GDP.

Let's restructure this observation so that it takes the form of an analogy.

"I'm starting to have some issues with generalism. I can't find a way in which it..  I guess works.  Even the neo-generalist animals which still have vestiges of specialist features seem to fall behind in brute efficiency and environmental adaptation."


EG, when you have a group that specializes almost exclusively on worship of "the free market", and "innovative cost savings", with emphasis on wealth generation--- vs groups that are more focused on overall health of a society instead of how much money it can make, and how quickly/efficiently, it makes no sense to complain that the latter does not perform with the same caliber of performance, in the specialized metrics of the specialized former.

A great big huge +1, sir.  Our capitalist systems focus on making profit at the cost of all else.  It is the job of government to make them consider externalities, but still, the system is geared towards turning everything into pounds.  Socialism is geared towards the reduction of suffering, and the promotion of wellbeing and happiness amongst its citizens.

[Kagus]

As an aside, ol' DemSoc Norway used to be one of the world leaders in GDP per capita. And we've actually gotten a lot less socialist since those days.

Then again, Norway is kinda cheating what with the massive government-owned oil reserves and processing...

[KittyTac]

Looks like you didn't read the second part of his post. A mix of capitalism and socialism is what produces a happy and stable country, not either of those.

[Reelya]

I'm not sure where the "social democracies are falling behind" idea is coming from. Does anyone have any concrete figures to back up an assertion like that?

As an aside, ol' DemSoc Norway used to be one of the world leaders in GDP per capita. And we've actually gotten a lot less socialist since those days.

Norway still is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Based on nominal GDP (raw dollars) it's #3 in the world. Based on PPP (spending power) it's still only #7.

Also, one of the arguments is that social democracies aren't leading in "technological innovation" but that's clearly bullshit. Sure, Sweden invents less things than the USA does. But ... the USA has 320 million people while Sweden has less than 10 million people. It's apples and oranges to compare raw number of inventions between two countries of such different size.

[wierd]

Looks like you didn't read the second part of his post. A mix of capitalism and socialism is what produces a happy and stable country, not either of those.

Does not obviate his statement--- Socialism is idealistically tailored toward (at least the premise of) reducing suffering, and improving quality of life of all members of the society without restraint, hesitation, or consideration. (quote, "Each according to his ability, to each, according to his needs")  Capitalism is likewise idealistically tailored toward the generation and accumulation of capital. ("Caveat Emptor", "to the victor goes the spoils", etc.)

Trying to describe how one of those fails to live up to the degree of performance that the other has in terms their respective idealized metrics is just not being sensible.

[Reelya]

You can look at the effects of higher taxes and infrastructure in a place like Sweden.

Crunch the numbers, and Sweden produces more billionaires per capita than the USA does. Sure, the rich complain about the taxes, but all that infrastructure spending in fact creates a better support structure for businesses so that entrepreneurs can afford to take bigger risks. On the opposite end you can end up like those "liberty cities" in Texas that don't have public sewage works then wonder why businesses aren't flocking to town to take advantage of the tax breaks.

https://slate.com/business/2013/11/swedens-billionaires-they-have-more-per-capita-than-the-united-states.html