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[overseer05-15]

Doing homework while listening to youtube. Accidentally hit the mouse with my hand. DAGOTHWAVE starts playing.

Youtube's suggested videos thing is frigging wonderful.

What a grand and intoxicating accident.

Spoiler: I wondered if this would ever be relevant again. (click to show/hide)

[Hanslanda]

obligatory buzzkill comment

dry philosophical

Chopping up the quote...

discussion war.

for laborious, point-by-point rebuttal.

Off-topic snarky comedy insert to defuse

Did we just make fun of our own local posting style?

[hops]

idiotic joke that promptly gets ignored in the serious discussion

[George_Chickens]

Irrelevant but funny and constant puns

[scriver]

The same puns that  gets posted over and over again

[George_Chickens]

The same puns that  gets posted over and over again

I think we ought to stop this derail before Toady brings down some punishment 

[pisskop]

How very repunsentitive of the common problem

[overseer05-15]

Your account will be suspunded

[KittyTac]

Very punny puns.

[pisskop]

Got a real Pundit on our hands.

[scriver]

I swear I'm gonna pund your faces into the ground

[Reelya]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822150809.htm

Interesting research that shows how it's really important to be careful with kids, and especially how kids can be influenced by therapists.

Apparently there's recently been an epidemic of middle-class white girls suddenly deciding they're trans-male. It comes in clumps, e.g. one case was where one girl in a friend group decided they were trans-male, then her two BFFs did. Then, a fourth person joined the group, suddenly decides they're trans-male as well.

Obviously gender dysphoria is a real pre-existing thing, but what I described above sounds a hell of a lot like the pattern in Mass Psychogenic Illness outbreaks, which are in fact much more common with teenage girls than any other demographic.

Then therapists come along with models like "gender affirming therapy" and say "we have to believe these girls", which is almost spot-on how things went in the 1980s with the Satanic Panic when you think about it. Children learn how to say what the therapist or researcher wants to hear. This is a big reason that sort of therapy was discredited. Unless they take *very strong* measures, then "gender affirming therapy" could in fact be just as biased.

To meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria in childhood, a child needs to experience at least six of the eight indicators. Most include readily observable signs, such as a strong rejection of typically feminine or masculine toys and games, and strong resistance to wearing typically feminine or masculine clothes. Eighty percent of the parents reported observing none of these indicators in their children before puberty.

Among the noteworthy patterns Littman found in the survey data: 21 percent of parents reported their child had one or more friends become transgender-identified at around the same time; 20 percent reported an increase in their child's social media use around the same time as experiencing gender dysphoria symptoms; and 45 percent reported both.

So, previous identifiable signs of gender dysphoria in these groups were extremely rare (<20% had any of the 8 symptoms) and  adding up those figures, almost 90% of the girls either knew friends who said they were trans shortly before they did or just started heavily using social media. Obviously there are real trans issues mixed in there but this sounds more like the pattern of a mass panic / psychogenic outbreak than an previously diagnosed medical thing.

And the thing is, I've met a fair number male->female transgenders over the years, and never doubted the validity of any of their identities. However, last year I met some female->male "identified" people and I just got the complete impression that they were full of shit. I find it appalling since it feels like some people are appropriating transgender identity as some form of fashion statement.

[Rockeater]

Heard the study wasn't reliable, one of the main problems were that the survey was of the parents of the people and not the transgenders themselves
A more complete critic:
https://youtu.be/JvLuuGZVcfw

[Tack]

I feel like I missed the Bay12-in-Bay12 sequence, but it was as funny as it was sad so thanks to those who participated.

Except the puns. That’s mostly tragic.


Also: re the study; this sounds like Ritalin all over again. Broad spectrum treatments for a much rarer issue.
That being said I know two fem>male trans and they both seem fairly legitimate in their stuff.

[Reelya]

Heard the study wasn't reliable, one of the main problems were that the survey was of the parents of the people and not the transgenders themselves
A more complete critic:
https://youtu.be/JvLuuGZVcfw

An important note: they used diagnostic guidelines actually used for gender dysphoria. Bringing up "but they asked the parents" is irrelevant, since the diagnostic guidelines already state that you ask the parents. Asking the parents about the 8 pre-existing symptoms is in fact the normal way that it's determined that the transgender condition existed. It's like ... this one study didn't find results that back up the pro-transgender medical industry, now that industry is slamming the study for adhering to methods that the same industry itself developed and promotes.

also, asking the children is *problematic* for the reasons I brought up in relation to the 1980s child abuse moral panic. Researchers influence the child to respond in the way that pleases the researcher. A pro-transgender researcher and the child who is claiming to be transgender aren't any more impartial than the parents. Why would you assume that that alternate methodology is better?

So, you say the parents are biased against the transgender thing, right? But, how does that explain why it's almost entirely parents of girls who are reporting this. Presumably parents of a boy who said they're a transgender girl would be equally if not more upset about that, but those aren't the parents reporting this phenomena. So just saying "parents are biased against transgender" clearly fails to account for the variables here.

EDIT: there's another issue. These diagnostic guidelines already existed and had no problem diagnosing transgender children previously. It's only now post-social-media that teen girls are starting to develop "transgender" behaviors that don't show up when you apply the childhood surveys. If it was just general resistance to the idea on behalf of parents it should just run through the whole history of the application of these diagnostic methods and not be a new thing.

(also:a 40 minute video, really? nobody has time to watch all of that and find the few bits that will be relevant. Find it in print plz. Dropping a video as an argument, especially a long one with summazing the points isn't an argument)

EDIT: the paper was also pulled from the university not because of the methodology, but because of a logical fallacy: the "appeal to consequences"

"Brown community members expressing concerns that the conclusions of the study could be used to discredit efforts to support transgender youth and invalidate the perspectives of members of the transgender community.”

"Appeal to consequences" is a fallacy because the outcomes caused by knowing some bit of information have no bearing on whether that bit of information is true or not. It would be like rejecting the scientific validity of a paper nuclear fission because if the paper was true, then you could make atom bombs.