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[Tawa]

Reelya, you should actually read the articles you cite as proof that the media is out to get you. Both of the articles you linked very explicitly say "nazis hate the film", not "everyone who hates the film is a nazi".

That isn't to say that all objections to The Last Jedi — or The Force Awakens, which introduced the new cast — are rooted in far-right ideology or hatred. For some, the story simply didn't conform to what they had imagined; fans have had over 30 years to dream up what Luke Skywalker did after Return of the Jedi, and there were plenty of now-discarded novels, comics, and video games that offered more rousing heroics than his self-imposed exile on a forgotten island. Those dissatisfied on this count are sometimes rigid nostalgists, and that doesn't connote hatred, even if it is yearning for a past that was less equal.

That's an excerpt from the first. And I'd reject your interpretation of the second, emphasis mine:

Of course, the alt-right sees all of this as an attack on white males, and is now claiming responsibility for the low audience score the film currently has on Rotten Tomatoes (it has a very high critics score, however)

That, by itself, suggests he doesn't think they're wholly responsible, but if you follow the link he provides for this, you'll see it's a HuffPo article detailing both sides of the issue, itself explicitly stating that not all TLJ haters are alt-right.

[ChairmanPoo]

The nature of the article and the disclaimer suggests that most haters are alt right. AKA with that sort of disclaimer they are begging the question



I think it was a lousy wreck of a movie myself, from beginning to end. Rey is a rather bidimensional main character, but she's not the worst in this fest, IMO. The sheer ridiculousness of the two surviving main villains is much more worrying

[Reelya]

I think it was a lousy wreck of a movie myself, from beginning to end.

Yeah, the backlash against the backlash tends to miss that most of the criticism is over structural issues not "there are girls in it" or "it's not the Star Wars I remember", and the articles are trying to pigeonhole it into those two exact things.

by far the most common complaints are that the movie jump-cuts around too much (three different plots going on at once), that it doesn't resolve plot points brought up in the new trilogy itself, that Rey doesn't get enough development as a character, and that the whole casino arc is just awfully shoe-horned in and doesn't fit the setting. In fact, the biggest complaint is that there are too many rehashes of old Star Wars plot points and set pieces, but they're done in a way that doesn't propel the plot.

Both of the articles you linked very explicitly say "nazis hate the film", not "everyone who hates the film is a nazi".

i think that's a rather weak defense there Tawa. It's common for people to associate things in the same way e.g. constantly using phrases like "islamic terrorists" and "all terrorists are muslims" could be defended using the same logic you're using here. It doesn't work like that Tawa. When someone says "all Nazis do X" they're very heavily - and deliberately implying "people who do X are Nazis" in most people's minds.  Saying that they're not doing that is no better than being an apologist for Muslim haters who sneakily imply that all Muslims are terrorists in similar ways.

And think about this from a tactical point of view - why the article even exists - the point of the article isn't to smear Nazis as Star Wars haters, because Nazis don't need to be smeared in that way (are you going to think less of Nazis than you do now, because they don't like Star Wars?) it's deliberately designed to smear TLJ haters as Nazis. That's the goal of the entire article.

Of course, the alt-right sees all of this as an attack on white males, and is now claiming responsibility for the low audience score the film currently has on Rotten Tomatoes (it has a very high critics score, however)

You might have mis-interpreted this Tawa, since the article isn't saying the low scores aren't because of alt-right/Nazis. It just says the alt-right claims credit for the low scores, then immediately notes that critics give TLJ very high scores. So what is that saying, decoded: "Nazis claim they were responsible for giving it low scores, and look, these other people - who aren't Nazis - gave it high scores". That's not disputing the claim, the additional point about the critic's scores was to add credence to the claim that the alt-right/Nazis were in fact responsible for the low scores. e.g. the aspersion here is that low score = Nazi and that's contrasted with high score = Non-Nazi.

[Harry Baldman]

I do wonder if TLJ is gonna get vindicated by history over the next two decades or so once the weirdness dies down and we get a third film to put it all into context. After all, The Empire Strikes Back wasn't quite as well regarded when it came out.

[Egan_BW]

I take it back, this would be more fun if it were about the dress.

[ChairmanPoo]

I take it back, this would be more fun if it were about the dress.

As you wish

*ahem*

W̲͔̯̭̣h̫̱̹̣͕a͍͍̳̗̼̱ͅt̯̰̳͖̰͞ ̙̬̗́ḁ͔͉̖r̼̩͉̩̺͙̕ͅe ̶̘̘͎̖̦y̴̦o̮͇͕̟̗͍̣u̸̩͕ ̠̕w̴̦̟͖e̬̬͘a̗͖̖̳͝ͅr̺̫̝̻̲̩i̡͇͎̪n͙̻̤̬g͉̱̜͡.̙͓̣.͝.̭̟̗̞?

[Egan_BW]

Meaty sleeve. Kinda shoddy to be honest, but it's good for some things.

[Hanslanda]

I do wonder if TLJ is gonna get vindicated by history over the next two decades or so once the weirdness dies down and we get a third film to put it all into context. After all, The Empire Strikes Back wasn't quite as well regarded when it came out.

I hope so. I think it's a great movie.

[ChairmanPoo]

I hope not because it sucked and if it succeed Star Wars will stick with writing scripts manatee style

https://youtu.be/tyetbvrQjOs

[USEC_OFFICER]

I do wonder if TLJ is gonna get vindicated by history over the next two decades or so once the weirdness dies down and we get a third film to put it all into context. After all, The Empire Strikes Back wasn't quite as well regarded when it came out.

If I remember correctly, the director or writer for TLJ admitted that they were pretty much winging things and there was no big, overarching plan they were supposed to follow. So the third film isn't going to provide context so much as excuses, since it doesn't have a coherent, overarching plotline to follow but has to make something up itself.

Also I feel that even after the weirdness dies down, TLJ isn't going to be completely vindicated. Some of its issues are structural/fundamental, like how you can chop out several good chunks of the movie and miss nothing or how part of the plot is caused by that purple-haired Admiral appearing incompetent/useless when she has no reason to seem that way. The kind of stuff that can't be papered over by another movie.

_{Mind you, I'm still hoping that Episode 9 has sassy force ghost Luke talking/interacting with Kylo Ren. Atoning for his mistakes and trying to help his wayward apprentice and the like. It is probably highly unlikely to occur but still.}

[NJW2000]

The nature of the article and the disclaimer suggests that most haters are alt right. AKA with that sort of disclaimer they are begging the question

OKAY

We need to stop right here. There's a bit too much of a disconnect between reality and fantasy. It's actually worrying.

If bot accounts did indeed attack the “Last Jedi” ratings, it’s unknown what impact, if any, they actually had on the overall audience score. Not everyone who rated the movie poorly is an anti-feminist fanatic, of course. Either way, Rotten Tomatoes is dubious about Down With Disney’s claims.

The rest of the article (more than half) goes on to discuss how every ratings site mentioned sees no evidence of bot use.

In fact, the title of the article is "The alt-right claims credit for Last Jedi" backlash. Notice that it doesn't say, "is responsible for", it says claims. Because half the evidence it shows suggests that the alt-right group it contacted were either lying or ineffective. I'm starting to think you haven't even skimmed the piece, but that just makes your problems with it even more concerning. You object to the "nature of the article" (reporting on something you'd rather hadn't come up?) and the disclaimed that explicitly denied that there was any certainty the alt-right were even involved. So someone even considering the possibility that the alt-right weren't fibbing isn't ok? I don't suppose you'd be okay with an article that didn't "beg the question" or explicitly say that the alt-right claims might be false either.

 As far as I can tell, the only article on this subject you'd accept would be one that didn't exist. And if you can't stomach huffpost articles that work from facts and have qualified and uncertain conclusions, you really shouldn't be exposed to the rest of the internet.

Hate to say it, but somebody has a persecution complex here. Disliked the film myself, and it seems like the general public shared my opinion, but that doesn't mean I object to factual articles.

[ChairmanPoo]

No, you're just a drama queen. I didnt reply to the article, I replied to *your* post. And then you went onto a tirade.

[Reelya]

We should probably all take a chill pill. It's fine to discuss the issues, but not snark on other people.

The rest of the article (more than half) goes on to discuss how every ratings site mentioned sees no evidence of bot use.

But nobody cited that article in the first place. The ones that were presented as evidence (links repeated below) have the "alt right stacked the scores" claim, but don't have any inkling of a rebuttal. I was making a claim about what these articles say, not the hypothetical contents of other articles I hadn't read, at the time.

When articles cite another article in-line, they choose what information to convey to give you the gist of the article, and what to omit. This can be quite telling about what spin the new article is trying to put on the original story.

In this case, they chose to tell you that alt-right people claim to have skewed the votes, but omit the details that the claim came from one guy, that he claimed to have used a bot, and that the claim was dismissed by Rotten Tomatoes. Basically they omitted all the actual important information. You're left (by these two articles) with the impression that there was an organized swarm of actual living right-wingers who admit to coordinating between themselves to downvote the thing. Something that's not supported at all by the article they link. And the impression you're meant to be left with (by the two articles I cited) is that this casts aspersions on anyone who - manually - left a poor review, of being Alt-Right and/or a literal Nazi.

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/how-the-alt-right-and-nostalgic-trolls-hijacked-geek-pop-culture
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/12/21/25647911/the-fact-that-the-alt-right-hates-star-wars-the-last-jedi-shouldnt-surprise-you

[NJW2000]

No, you're just a drama queen. I didnt reply to the article, I replied to *your* post. And then you went onto a tirade.

...I didn't post on this before, but that sort of accuracy obviously isn't your main concern.

You clearly were talking about the article. Unless when you say, "the nature of the article and the disclaimer", you don't actually mean the article and its contents.

And yes, I did go on a tirade. People misrepresenting matters of fact and objecting to reasonable journalism because it offends their hyper-sensitive emotions irritates me.


I don't know about the general reporting of the claimed tampering. Chairman and I were discussing a specific article.

[Frumple]

The king hasn't been feeling well since the queen died, they said.

Spoiler: I THINK I FOUND YOUR PROBLEM (click to show/hide)

yorozuya rpg, newest entrant to the "most oblivious castle dwellers" contest

Edit: well okay that's supposed to be a ghost I guess

but I'm not some kind of chosen one or something my dude is just a rando merchant guy trying to make a buck

apparently merchant powers in this universe comes with "see and communicate with the restless dead" as a perk

not even death will save you from marketing