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[wierd]

Indeed.

The proper antidote is widespread education, and culturally reinforced critical thinking as an ideal.

Really, all you need is widespread education though. (The critical thinking is the failsafe in case you fuck up big time in your educational materials selection.) This has been demonstrated repeatedly via government initiated social engineering projects by both the US and th former Soviet Union.  We are *STILL* suffering from that programming today, with the irrational and incorrect definitions of "Communism!" in the US. (Also, targeted misinformation campaigns historically from the tobacco industry, and recently from the corn syrup industry, and oil industries, for their respective serious problems [Tobacco vs Cancer, Corn Syrup vs Diabetes rates, and Oil Industry vs Climate Change]-- specifically, in regard to engineering false debate about the findings from independent research.)

This brings us to the real crux though--- if you are gonna go that route, you have to be REALLY, REALLY DAMN SURE that you are factually correct, before you go spreading propaganda and programming people.

[Dunamisdeos]

I feel like those previous attempts show us exactly where that would end, though.

[wierd]

The results were radical success.  It is why the US *STILL* uses propaganda, and SO DOES RUSSIA. (Also China, and every other major large nation.)

The deficits are nearly all attributable to ham-fisted, purely politically selected "Facts".  If actual bona-fide *FACTS* are used instead of "facts", then the only issue you run into is when science moves forward, and invalidates or retracts a previously upheld conclusion.

This is why I said you have to be "Really really damn sure".  Some things, science is indeed really really damn sure of.

[Harry Baldman]

Yeah, because everyone saying things we don't like is obviously completely divorced from reality, right? We, with our self-evident monopoly on reason and logical evidence-based thinking, are obviously the only people whose claims of censorship would be strengthened by actual censorship. The Streisand effect only makes us more curious to access suppressed information, because we are the only real people, yes?

Crivens, you're completely right. You have intellectually dismantled my cunning plan to defeat the extremist right by constitutionally forbidding Rupert Murdoch and having conservatism classified as a form of slowly progressing schizophrenia.

Seriously though, "I'm standing up for free speech in this liberal age of darkness" is the herpes of online discourse and it's really to everyone's benefit if people try not to actively spread it.

[TamerVirus]

Free Speech? Where? Where I get my speech, they cost $5.99 and taste kinda bland

[wierd]

Sadly, free speech without institutional reprisal is the only real way to puncture groupthink and echo chambers.

It is impossible to intelligently evaluate a statement, if you are forbidden from hearing the statement.

This does unfortunately mean that you will be exposed to a constant barrage of idiocy. However, the ability to sieve truth from fiction, only comes with training, experience, and a large reserve of reliable information.  You only get those latter things from free exchange of ideas, and the institutions that this creates. Otherwise, you end up with large political powers dominating all discussion with "approved" conclusions.

EG-- if all you hear about socialism is "RED MENACE!! WOOOOO!!", you will never have the rational discussion about the Scandinavian countries, and their social programs.

[Harry Baldman]

Free Speech? Where? Where I get my speech, they cost $5.99 and taste kinda bland

That's what you get for shopping at the Free Marketplace of Ideas, everything's pre-owned and fascism is always on sale.

Sadly, free speech without institutional reprisal is the only real way to puncture groupthink and echo chambers.

It is impossible to intelligently evaluate a statement, if you are forbidden from hearing the statement.

This does unfortunately mean that you will be exposed to a constant barrage of idiocy. However, the ability to sieve truth from fiction, only comes with training, experience, and a large reserve of reliable information.  You only get those latter things from free exchange of ideas, and the institutions that this creates. Otherwise, you end up with large political powers dominating all discussion with "approved" conclusions.

EG-- if all you hear about socialism is "RED MENACE!! WOOOOO!!", you will never have the rational discussion about the Scandinavian countries, and their social programs.

Speaking of the Free Marketplace of Ideas, one thing people tend to forget about said Ideas is that repetition reinforces beliefs regardless of whether they're well-founded or not.

[wierd]

Well yeah- it has government subsidies, because the government is the producer! (and regulator!) ;P

If you want the real stuff, you have to go full artisinal, and trust me, you actually have to look for it.

[Trekkin]

Seriously though, "I'm standing up for free speech in this liberal age of darkness" is the herpes of online discourse and it's really to everyone's benefit if people try not to actively spread it.

Right. Part of stamping that out is making it harder to claim that there's a liberal age of darkness in the first place. When people who have already convinced themselves they're marginalized and oppressed read "we should make advocating for XYZ illegal", they don't shut up; they compress that into a sound byte and use it to "prove" how they must be right since the liebruhls want to shut them down, by their own admission. They would not still exist if they had not mastered the requisite rhetoric for that.

[Yoink]

Jeez, when I saw Dwarfy so doggedly arguing from a sane viewpoint I actually backed out of the thread to see if there was a "new" button next to the mod log. Phew.

Anyway, to skirt safely around the fringes of this argument, in my experience unisex loos - with a shared bathroom area containing the sinks, even - tend to work quite well, but then I suppose the main place I've seen those is in music venues where everyone is supposed to share a common interest and be excellent to each other, plus there will generally be a security guard not far away.
Still, the question here is avoiding feelings of discomfort, not physical danger (mostly?), and as far as I've seen it goes quite well. Segregated loos involve a whole different mindset where the sight of a member of the opposite sex comes as an unpleasant shock.

Urinals are a useless and inefficient waste of resources and should be phased out across the board regardless of attempts at inclusivity - and no, I don't go out of my way to avoid using them.

On another note: I don't really understand why asexual would count as some persecuted sexual orientation, or why I've seen them described as "out and proud". Like, wtf? You're/they're above all that. Maybe I attach less importance to sexual intercourse than most people, but the idea of someone lacking an idea in sex really doesn't seem like a big deal. And I'm not even a tolerant person like most of y'all! Lacking an interest in alcohol/drug use is far more damning.
Um, I might have had more to say here, but it's getting on and I need to finish my coffee and start panicking if I'm to make lunch, (hopefully) exercise and eat breakfast quickly enough to make it to work on time.

[wierd]

Indeed.  the answer instead is "XYZ has been repeatedly shown to be incorrect by repeated independent investigation. For more information, see the following helpful sources....."


And, in some cases, "We are aware that no evidence we can provide that is to the contrary of a certain popular position will be satisfactory to some people. Since this is a provably impossible thing, we are not providing this for them. Instead, we direct you to some helpful articles on mental health, along with our normal sources. We think you are a sensible human being, and just want you to be fully informed in your choices. Any conclusions we leave up to you."

[TamerVirus]

The real solution is to outlaw the bathroom entirely and force everyone to rely on colostomy bags

[wierd]

The real solution is to outlaw the bathroom entirely and force everyone to rely on colostomy bags

Says the guy who has never, ever had to change or care for one.

No. Ostomies are horrid things, and so are catheter bags. 


But to segue this:

It is AMAZING how, once people end up in a situation where they have no reasonable choice but to rely on somebody helping them in the bathroom, they suddenly get over their irrational fears of having the other gender in the bathroom with them. (Is an adult care giver, and wipes ladies' bottoms every day.)

[McTraveller]

To completely change the topic, apparently someone is trying to get the 2020 democratic presidential nomination based on a platform of "institute UBI and pay for it with a value-added tax."   

EDIT also completely unrelated: my lungs are not happy with me for riding my bike a mere 3 miles this afternoon.  Granted it's probably been 6 months since I've done anything that close to cardiovascular work, but still...

[wierd]

Only 3 miles?

Is the air very cold, dry, or did you cycle uphill/very quickly?  Are you asthmatic?  O.o 

Cycling should be lower impact than walking; it has all that mechanical advantage and stuff.