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[hector13]

Cats require animal protein to live, that's why it's cruel.

[Sirus]

Heh, I do like that idea.  There's nothing wrong with GMO inherently, it's monocultures that are dangerous.

Exactly the reason it's such a terrible idea

I doubt there are any insurmountable problems.  The primary one seems to be taurine, which can be and is synthesized for this purpose.  That's kinda a waste of resources, but veganism is inherently inefficient compared to vegetarianism.

A friend's cousin is vegetarian (or vegan?) and feeds their dog as such.  It lives just fine, the main side effect being that it apparently *loves* eating a bit of turkey on thanksgiving.  Which would maybe imply that these vegetarian foods don't taste very good to dogs and cats, heh.

Seems a bit ironic to call it animal cruelty, though, unless you seek out cruelty-free meat.  That's tough enough to shop for normally, much less as pet food.  And if it's cruel to feed carnivores vegetables...  Should we stop feeding cows to cows?  Doesn't bother me, saves money and works fine.

Feeding cows to cows was how we got Mad Cow Disease.

Yes, it was specifically the nervous tissue causing that to happen, but perhaps we shouldn't be so blase about deliberately encouraging cannibalism

[scourge728]

I want you to try and feed a child only leaves and grass and tell the courts that's not cruelty because of feeding cows cow, tell me how that works out for you

[Draignean]

I want you to try and feed a child only leaves and grass and tell the courts that's not cruelty because of feeding cows cow, tell me how that works out for you

I feel like someone has tragically missed someone's point or comically talked past them, because I don't think this is a sequence of logic anyone actually had.

[scourge728]

Seems a bit ironic to call it animal cruelty, though, unless you seek out cruelty-free meat.  That's tough enough to shop for normally, much less as pet food.  And if it's cruel to feed carnivores vegetables...  Should we stop feeding cows to cows?  Doesn't bother me, saves money and works fine.

This is what I based it on.

[Reelya]

Feeding cows to cows was how we got Mad Cow Disease.

Yes, it was specifically the nervous tissue causing that to happen, but perhaps we shouldn't be so blase about deliberately encouraging cannibalism

I'm kind of skeptical of the official cause. There was evidence that chemicals played a role, but the UK government wanted to shut down that speculation, so went with the 'it just happens' explanation. "The official panel found otherwise!" isn't a good model of how science is supposed to work. If it's literally just animals eating other animals that's the cause of it spreading, and prions just fold themselves wrong for no reason, then CJD should spontaneously occur in cows all the time, e.g. there would have to be a first cow to start the chain, but we don't see cows spontaneously developing CJD at all, and other places have in fact fed animal waste to other animals, for sure, for a long time, yet nobody ever had this outbreak before.

The key alternate explanation is that excess manganese combined with copper deficiency causes copper to be substituted with manganese, and this leads to the problem.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25125459

We have previously demonstrated in bovine brain homogenate that free radicals produce proteinase K-resistant prion after manganese is substituted for copper

This one is actually a good overview of the different theories:
https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2001/12/mad-cow.html

Another position expressed in testimony before the BSE Inquiry and in the scientific and popular literature is that of a British organic farmer, Mark Purdey, who hypothesizes that:

    A copper deficiency, with manganese replacement for copper in the prion protein, initially caused by the repeated application of extremely high doses of an organophosphate (OP) insecticide, phosmet, and the provision of a manganese-rich chicken manure-based feed supplement is the key to the origin of BSE in British cattle.
    The subsequent feeding of MBM and offal from infected cattle containing OP derivatives and/or the manganese-modified prion protein caused its spread.
    It is copper deficiency with manganese substitution that affects humans in the BSE variant, vCJD. Mr. Purdey believes that this is caused by low copper content and high manganese content in soil and consequently in food consumed by humans. Excess manganese entered the soil by the use of sewage sludge as a soil additive and of manganese-based pesticides.

So, this theory is that they were hitting the cows with high levels of insecticide phosmet to control a particular parasite (warble fly) which interfered with copper metabolism, and at the same time they started putting manganese-rich chicken poop into their feed. This then caused manganese to substitute for copper in the prions and leads to the abberant folding and brain disease. Here's evidence that phosmet does just that to copper

http://enhs.umn.edu/current/5103_spring2003/prions/prionmetabolislm.html

[Draignean]

Seems a bit ironic to call it animal cruelty, though, unless you seek out cruelty-free meat.  That's tough enough to shop for normally, much less as pet food.  And if it's cruel to feed carnivores vegetables...  Should we stop feeding cows to cows?  Doesn't bother me, saves money and works fine.

This is what I based it on.

Comically talked past then, with a side of crazy pancake logic.

Humans are not strict carnivores. We are selective omnivores who are no more capable of eating every kind of plant than we are of eating every kind of meat. Talking about feeding a kid grass is simultaneously beside the point and entirely unrelated to the conversation at hand.

I'm trying to reason out why you think your statement is any way connected or meaningful, but, as stated, crazy pancake logic that seems completely unrelated to Rolan7's point. Human's do not require meat. Humans do not need require fruits and/or vegetables. We require a laundry list of vitamins and nutrients bundled with enough calories to keep the furnace running. Anything goes after that point.

[TamerVirus]

Well what about the people who 'eat' by staring at the sun?

[Sirus]

Unless those people are part photosynthesizing plant, they aren't actually gaining anything except eye strain, Vitamin D, and an increased risk of skin cancer.

[scourge728]

And if it's cruel to feed carnivores vegetables...  Should we stop feeding cows to cows?  Doesn't bother me, saves money and works fine.

This is what I based it on.

Comically talked past then, with a side of crazy pancake logic.

Humans are not strict carnivores. We are selective omnivores who are no more capable of eating every kind of plant than we are of eating every kind of meat. Talking about feeding a kid grass is simultaneously beside the point and entirely unrelated to the conversation at hand.

I'm trying to reason out why you think your statement is any way connected or meaningful, but, as stated, crazy pancake logic that seems completely unrelated to Rolan7's point. Human's do not require meat. Humans do not need require fruits and/or vegetables. We require a laundry list of vitamins and nutrients bundled with enough calories to keep the furnace running. Anything goes after that point.

They imply that feeding vegetables to carnivores (specifically cats) is not cruelty, I pointed out that feeding grass to a human is the same basic thing, both are things other animals can eat, that fail to provide necessary nutrients to the consumer, and pointed out that trying to say it wasn't cruelty would most likely fail in court

[Rolan7]

I don't really see the logic either, sorry.

I want you to try and feed a child only leaves and grass and tell the courts that's not cruelty because of feeding cows cow, tell me how that works out for you

An actual criticism would be that I was comparing the feeding of some meat to herbivores, to feeding only vegetables to a carnivore.  I was kinda worried I'd get called out on that.  Feeding grass to an omnivore has nothing to do with what I said

You'd make a good politician though.  "Think of the children my opponent would be starving if they did X!"

Cats require animal protein to live, that's why it's cruel.

Then the cats are dying?
The cats' needs *are* being met, thanks to synthesized taurine.  It probably doesn't taste as good, but if we should be in the business of maximizing the dining experience of animals, then livestock diet is a massively bigger problem than a few pet-owning vegans.

I consider pure veganism too extreme for me, I'd rather be vegetarian again or just buy carefully.  But it's not animal cruelty, especially by comparison.

[hector13]

'tain't the only thing cats need though it's one of many vital things cats get through eating meat. A lot of these things get added to cat food.

I mean, if you're a vegan and want a pet, why not get a rabbit? Better than forcing your higher level thinking onto an animal that is quite happy to play with prey for hours before killing it.

[Reelya]

I am kind of late for the whole "ancient texts are pure and holy" discussion, but...
In short, people wrote a bunch of crap in parchments, it's just that not a lot has survived to this day.

We have plenty of stupid shit carved on rocks. Rocks are cheap, durable and accessible to the general public. Rocks were the fanfiction of the ancient world.

Heh, I do like that idea.  There's nothing wrong with GMO inherently, it's monocultures that are dangerous.

Exactly the reason it's such a terrible idea

I doubt there are any insurmountable problems.  The primary one seems to be taurine, which can be and is synthesized for this purpose.  That's kinda a waste of resources, but veganism is inherently inefficient compared to vegetarianism.

While we're at it, we should GMO humans to make Vitamin C. Humans + chimps are some of the only mammals that lost the vitamin-C gene, because we eat so much fruit anyway, genetic drift did away with it. It's still there, but mutated. We can patch that, and turn it back on, using something like CRISPR to spread it. Which would be a massive boon to public health, but also reduce environmental strain: making sure everyone has a diet rich in nutrients is environmentally costly. We should make humans self-sufficient for all nutrients that we could make ourselves.

[martinuzz]

I'm an extreme pacifist. But people who try to turn their cats into vegans give me the urge to start slapping face with blunt object, like a sock filled with hard beans (while screaming HERE'S YOUR VEGAN FOOD).

[Rolan7]

'tain't the only thing cats need though it's one of many vital things cats get through eating meat. A lot of these things get added to cat food.

I mean, if you're a vegan and want a pet, why not get a rabbit? Better than forcing your higher level thinking onto an animal that is quite happy to play with prey for hours before killing it.

Yeah good point... I don't think I understand the motivations of vegans enough to answer that!
I hope it's mostly about the living conditions of livestock animals.  I can get behind that, though there are easier ways than veganism.  There are cruelty-free options, especially for milk and eggs.

If it's about wanting to minimize their involvement in the inevitable cycle of life and death...  I respect their beliefs without sharing them *shrug*.  I would wonder if some people make feed their pets in a kosher/halal way, but actually I bet the answer is mostly no...  Those commandments were for human "cleanliness", not to avoid killing said animals.

Oh right, for actual WTF yet on-topic material, I did once see a couple of amusing debates over whether vegans could consume um...  Human materials.  Like biting fingernails!  And, you know, placentas.  And other stuff, use your imagination.

Also a religious question about the accidental consumption of one's own blood, heh.  (We were doing research for a Vampire the Requiem campaign)