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[JoshuaFH]

Mary Sues are not objectively bad, it's another tool in the writer's tooolbox, and just because it's mostly bad writers who use it doesn't mean it can't be used well.
 

[Tack]

Yeah like Rick Sanchez is a Mary Sue and the quality of that show isn't divisive at all.

IN WTF NEWS.

I bit the bullet and updated to windows 10 and now everything is fixed... still though.

[Dunamisdeos]

I mean, there are plenty of stories that are front-and-center about their protagonist being a Mary-Sue, and they can still be good stories.

It would feel out of place in something like Star Trek though (to me). They used to go out of their way to avoid that whole thing. Jadzia Dax from DS9 is one of my favorite characters. She is like the Anti-Sue. I'd rather see someone like her in the new Star Trek.

[hector13]

People don’t want to see people fail on telly though. It’s meant to be an escape from the drudgery of your own failed existence, after all.

[Reelya]

Not true.

Mary Sue protagonists are basically the polar opposite of an ensemble cast. It makes no sense to highlight how one person is exceptional in every possible way when you're meant to be spreading the focus around on a team. Multiple Mary Sue characters in one team would be ... getting to the point of ridiculous.

Mary Sues aren't just "never fails". It's more than that. They are exceptional in every aspect of their backstory. They usually have traits nobody else in canon has ever had, or which the wisest character will proclaim were "impossible. or so we thought until you were born". But instead of limiting it to one thing, they have this "best evar" thing going on for multiple traits. if they shit, they shit diamonds, or rubies on a bad day.

In fact, from the example of shonen vs shoujo. Shonen romcoms (male audience) have a clumsy, doofus male and awesome girls. While shoujo romcoms (the ones girls watch) have a clumsy, doofus girl and awesome boys. That's the law of romcoms. People don't want to see "perfect" people winning, they want to see underdogs they can relate to.

[overseer05-15]

People don’t want to see people fail on telly though. It’s meant to be an escape from the drudgery of your own failed existence, after all.

...you never watched 'Wipeout', did you.

[Criptfeind]

I'm not sure I'd say that star trek avoids mary sues. It's sorta "the thing" that the main characters, the captains especially, are the literal best people in the galaxy. At least Picard and Kirk were. And humanity as a whole with it's "morals" and "determination" often is held up as being intrinsically special, something remarked on quite a few times by various godlike aliens. Although it's handled well as you say, a badly written mary sue would still be pretty bad *cough* wesley crusher *cough*

[Lord Shonus]

Not true.

Mary Sue protagonists are basically the polar opposite of an ensemble cast. It makes no sense to highlight how one person is exceptional in every possible way when you're meant to be spreading the focus around on a team. Multiple Mary Sue characters in one team would be ... getting to the point of ridiculous.

Mary Sues aren't just "never fails". It's more than that. They are exceptional in every aspect of their backstory. They usually have traits nobody else in canon has ever had, or which the wisest character will proclaim were "impossible. or so we thought until you were born". But instead of limiting it to one thing, they have this "best evar" thing going on for multiple traits. if they shit, they shit diamonds, or rubies on a bad day.

In fact, from the example of shonen vs shoujo. Shonen romcoms (male audience) have a clumsy, doofus male and awesome girls. While shoujo romcoms (the ones girls watch) have a clumsy, doofus girl and awesome boys. That's the law of romcoms. People don't want to see "perfect" people winning, they want to see underdogs they can relate to.

You seem to be using an outdated definition. Nowadays, "Mary Sue" means "any character who is not blindingly incompetent."

[hector13]

People don’t want to see people fail on telly though. It’s meant to be an escape from the drudgery of your own failed existence, after all.

...you never watched 'Wipeout', did you.

Except it was always more interesting when someone didn’t fail

[Dunamisdeos]

I guess my point is that I'd like to see someone with real, actual accomplishments to stand on as a character (Dax) rather than someone who is born to be the chosen one, especially as a protagonist and especially in Star Trek.

[Reelya]

Yeah, that's the difference between a real Mary Sue and Kirk for example.

Kirk is e.g. the "top graduate from the academy" and has been awarded a captaincy of a starship because he's highly competent. However, in any time and place someone must logically be "top graduate from the academy", and they're likely to be highly competent while also awarded lucrative positions, so there's no canon-bending bullshit going on there. Also, Kirk being a ladies' man is believable. It's exasperating but believable, because such people really exist. Also, it makes sense from a narrative standpoint that the guy we're following was the "top graduate from the academy" instead of some average schmuck.

Also, Kirk is only good at the things Kirk is good at, and he is often completely in the shit without the assistance of crewmembers who have skills he lacks. So he doesn't come across as a narrative Mary Sue. For a narrative Mary Sue, everything just works for them because "they're special" in specific ways, not just because they're the protagonist.

Whereas that stuff in the Star Trek: Discovery backstory doesn't make logical sense. There's no reason for such a person with those traits to even exist (in fact it openly breaks canon to do so), and no reason that people fall over backwards to award them honors and loyalty.

[Dunamisdeos]

A friend of mine has pointed out that Commander Riker absolutely committed mutiny and generally cared very little for firing phasers at people he probably should not.

If what we are dealing with is Female Riker Trek, then that is rad as hell.

[scriver]

While I really, really liked Voyager at the time of watching it, watching other people on the internet complain about it has convinced me that that blonde guy (Paris?) was an absolute Mary Sue times five hundred.

[overseer05-15]

People don’t want to see people fail on telly though. It’s meant to be an escape from the drudgery of your own failed existence, after all.

...you never watched 'Wipeout', did you.

Except it was always more interesting when someone didn’t fail

But every time someone's neck made a right angle you laughed. Don't lie to me.

[Dunamisdeos]

While I really, really liked Voyager at the time of watching it, watching other people on the internet complain about it has convinced me that that blonde guy (Paris?) was an absolute Mary Sue times five hundred.

Ha ha oh did Paris that guy whose sole qualifications were 1) spectacularly failed small-craft pilot and 2) a convict break the Warp 10 barrier yeah that's just classic Paris let's not reference that again ever.
 
Then he gets the girl. The end.