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[TempAcc]

I never actualy bought the whole ~guns are evil regardless of the person~ thing, mostly because the people that I personally know that own (and use) guns are also the most responsible and amicable, only half of these being law enforcement people, the other half just use them for sports and personal protection. Legally owning and shooting a gun is a big responsibility, and generally people that actualy use guns the most are the people that are more likely to refrain from actualy shooting someone.

As I learned from experience, few things teach you more about how much damage you can cause with a gun then actualy shooting something with a gun yourself. Its not something I'd do to anyone unless I absolutely needed to.

[Reelya]

The data suggests that in the aggregate, it costs more lives than it saves. See the second piece of research I linked.

Perhaps some people learn the lessons you suggest, but in the aggregate there are more dead bodies than there would be otherwise.

[Flying Dice]

No, it's just that easy access to guns make it simpler and easier to kill. Really determined people will find a way, but you get fewer heat-of-the-moment killings when people don't have readily available tools designed for impersonal low-difficulty killing.

[Hanslanda]

TempAcc said it. I own and conceal carry, and shooting someone is the ABSOLUTE LAST resort. But I DO want to have that last resort because as they say, if violence isn't your last resort, you didn't resort to enough it. I hate confrontation, but I love living and my loved ones a lot more.

[Tack]

I enjoy guns and I enjoy shooting guns.
In the same breath however I live in a country with incredibly strict gun laws.
Doesn't mean a man can't go to a shooting range and take some pot-shots for lulz. Just means more paperwork.

[milo christiansen]

And in some countries, a lot of money.

[Lord Shonus]

This sort of thing is why, despite actually being rightward of the NRA, I am not a member. The tactics they use are counterproductive.

[Reelya]

I think the issue is the idea "well i'm responsible with my guns and so are my friends ... so the laws should stay lax!"

When in fact, no that's not the point. The point is looking at how choice of gun laws effects people who shouldn't have guns. e.g. what laws minimize suicides and homicides is what should be optimized for.

e.g. if a product exploded 1% of the time, killing the user, but the feature that made it do that made it "extra fun" for 99% of people. That would not be acceptable. "but the 99% won't have as much fun" is a shit argument for not dealing with the safety issue that's killing 1% of users. Similarly, if the homicide + suicide rate is double in households with handguns vs ones without, then just because most households with handguns don't have a suicide or a homicide isn't an excuse to not deal with a known problem.

Just banning handguns completely would in fact reduce homicides quite a bit. In that case, it's actually up to people who want to keep their handguns to justify that, as a class.

[MasterFancyPants]

That citation doesn't support what you said.

Murder rates fell in every state, permits or not. But it fell more steeply in places with more strict gun control.

Only a small subset of any conceal carry group would be NRA members. There is basically no data on how many gun crimes people who are NRA members commit, that's not data they collect.

We have state by state gun ownership => homicide rates however. each 1% increase in gun ownership increases gun homicides by 0.9%. So it's basically a linear relationship.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

Every. Single. Time. I. Post. A. Paper.
Page 3. Last point. "permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at one - sixth of the rate at which police officers are convicted"

Also, more guns = more gun crime? Really? I'm not here to argue gun ownership with you, I'm arguing that these people who you are calling violent are in reality the least violent in our society.

Yes, not all CC holders are in the NRA, and not all NRA members are CC holders. However, I don't think it take a great leap of logic to say that many are, though that can be debated.

[TempAcc]

Also, a big problem with gun control is that, in practice, it hurts the common man the most while doing next to nothing to actual crime. A rich person has access to many other avenues to secure their safety of themselves, their family and their stuff, the common man usualy only has the police and himself, and the police has yet to have access to teleportation and mind reading devices. Disarming the common man means putting him at the mercy of even the lamest armed thug. The fact gun control does next to nothing to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns doesn't help, either.

And forget about a world without guns, that simply won't happen anywhere anytime soon, and that wouldn't stop crime either.

[milo christiansen]

Expecting law to stop crime is the height of insanity.

By definition crime is breaking the law.

[MasterFancyPants]

The data suggests that in the aggregate, it costs more lives than it saves. See the second piece of research I linked.

Perhaps some people learn the lessons you suggest, but in the aggregate there are more dead bodies than there would be otherwise.

Only that is not at all what the piece you linked said.
It said, "1% increase in gun ownership = .9% rise in gun homicide."
Not unjustifiable homicide, not total homicide, just gun homicide.

But again, this isn't about gun ownership rates vs crime rates. Go to the gun control thread if you want that extremely long and nuanced argument.

[Reelya]

MFP: No it does not say 0.09% read the article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

1.01 would be 101%
1.009 is in fact ... 100% + 0.9%

~~~

Dude, have you seen how hard UK criminals have it trying to get guns? It's now reaching absurd levels, with antique pistols and time-shared single guns rented to multiple gangs. The point is, cleaning up the black market for guns drives the price up, and prices petty criminals out of the gun market. They can't afford the 1000's of dollars for a gun to commit minor offences.

This argument is worn out. There's ample data suggesting that reducing gun availability reduces all levels of gun-related accidents, crimes, homicide and suicides. We have more than one country that can be looked at, and different countries have in fact reduced gun ownership in the past, and we can in fact test what you just wrote by looking at various nations to see how such laws fared.

It's a theory put forward by gun owners that "gun control does next to nothing to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns".

that theory is in fact, complete bullshit, not a fact.

[ArchAIngel]

Did the gun control thread get a title change?


Or am I just very confused?


Because I feel very confused.

[Reelya]

Is there a gun control thread?