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[Neonivek]

Separation of Church and State.  The Church has no authority in the United States, and should never be allowed to form or act as an entity with any form of enforcement capacity.  It is literally un-constitutional.

They are allowed to mediate in the USA, which is legally binding and can overturn future lawsuits and criminal charges.

And yes I am writing like this intentionally... It is because these are the exact reasons why it might happen. This doesn't change the separation of church and state because the Church is no different that any other entity.

If a University can have its own private police force, than so can a church.

[NullForceOmega]

Mediation is not enforcement neo.  I will personally remove anyone who violates the Separation of Church and State, it is a fundamental principle of this nation, and I have taken an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

[Flying Dice]

The only thing scarier (in that bit of the cyberpunk book) than corporate security forces are religious corporate security forces.

[Neonivek]

Mediation is not enforcement neo.  I will personally remove anyone who violates the Separation of Church and State, it is a fundamental principle of this nation, and I have taken an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

That isn't what separation of Church and State means.

The Church for example... can fund Presidential Candidates. The Church can petition government. The Church can create lobbies. The Pope (if he was American) could become President to my knowledge.

It just means the Church gets no special treatment or special sway over government matters.

If Pepsi could do it... A Religion can do it.

---

Interestingly enough this idea protects Religions as much as it protects Governments. As it wasn't unusual for a governing body to make sweeping changes to a religion.

[NullForceOmega]

No, the Separation of Church and State very specifically prohibits any religious body from holding any form of temporal power within the United States.  The Pope could not be president unless he gave up being the Pope.  A church can campaign but cannot hold authority.  It doesn't mean they get no special treatment, it means that special treatment is actually flat out a violation of the founding principles.  Religion has NO PLACE IN U.S. POLITICS.

[Silverthrone]

Absolutely not! The police should answer only to the state, and should not be governed by any corporate interests! Humbug! Humbug, I say!

'...Said the Mean Old Statist, before supporting taxation theft.

Of course, I do not quite know how it all works at present in America, nor if a corporate police force would be quite as much of a nightmare as in most other places. There is a long, long tradition of local and private entities, since a big, unified authority likely would not work as well. And, truth be told, if the prison system is already open to private entities and profiteering, then it is already half-done, in a sense.
Still, it sounds as if another cyberpunk nightmare is coming. Imagine Warner Bros. owning its own police force...

Not to mention, does a religious policing service not sound quite... Iranian? I thought Alabamians rather hated Iran. But then again, I imagine that there is a lot of features in Iranian society that rather appeals to them.

[Akura]

None of those are the creation or enforcement of laws.

Also, an American Pope would likely not be allowed to become President if also serving as Pope(which is a life appointment), as I'm pretty sure the Pope is also considered the head-of-state of the Vatican City, which is considered its own state.

[NullForceOmega]

I'm going to step out now, this is not a topic I am okay with, flipping entirely too many switches.  Later guys.

[Neonivek]

No, the Separation of Church and State very specifically prohibits any religious body from holding any form of temporal power within the United States.  The Pope could not be president unless he gave up being the Pope.  A church can campaign but cannot hold authority.  It doesn't mean they get no special treatment, it means that special treatment is actually flat out a violation of the founding principles.  Religion has NO PLACE IN U.S. POLITICS.

Funny enough NullForceOmega but the separation of Church and State has been used more for the exact opposite. That government shouldn't be allowed to limit religious freedoms and keep people from being appointed to office.

Oddly enough reading through the separation of Religion and State... Is a lot more about protecting Religions from the government... than the other way around.

Specifically because: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

It is actually weird that there is more reasoning that the Church should stay out of government business isn't actually because "Churches don't have people's best interest at heart" but more because it is taking sides in what should be the private affairs of another.

None of those are the creation or enforcement of laws.

Also, an American Pope would likely not be allowed to become President if also serving as Pope(which is a life appointment), as I'm pretty sure the Pope is also considered the head-of-state of the Vatican City, which is considered its own state.

I think it might fall under not being allowed to hold multiple offices or possibly being an agent of a foreign nation (which I have no idea if the USA limits... like if the Russian President ran for American office... even if he would no longer be one when he officially takes office... AND assuming that could ever happen)

[overseer05-15]

Allright I've got a question. If the church is in a state, and must abide by the laws of said state, wouldn't their private police also need to follow those laws?
Or maybe I don't fully understand the concept?

[wierd]

Depends on the laws of said country.

In the US for instance, there is a very rigid division between church and state affairs, so that when the state tries to mess with what the church considers a sacred sacrament, things get messy.

Sadly, because "religion" is a fuzzy concept, it COULD possibly, maybe, be seen as a requirement for a hypothetical religious organization to keep private security/thugs. (See for instance, old school catholicism and the crusades-- bad example, yes-- but hey. More recent might be the people working for SciOrg)

The main point here is that it is not cut and dried where one ends and another begins in some cases. There are mini-state like structures inside many churches. Private police/enforcers being just one feature. Also judges, prosecutors, et al, depending on the religion.

[Neonivek]

Another aspect is because Church and State are separate... it also means that the State is also separate from Religion. It isn't a one way relationship, but two way (hence why it crops up a LOT more in terms of "Keep the state away" than anything else)

A sort of "No Touchy" rule.

It could be argued that a State saying that a Church cannot have something that say... a private citizen could have... is the State meddling in Church affairs.

There is no reason why the Church shouldn't be allowed to have a private police force... in terms of separation of church and state (as the police are not a governing body)

Mind you... I am not sure if anyone should be able to pay for their own police. Assuming this police is flat out better than the actual police... you just created a two tier justice system where the people who pay get the good justice.

But this is the USA who are huge fans of Two Tier or One Tier Screw The Poor systems... so an argument based on "Everyone should have the same system so that we are not only forced to uplift it to prominence, but also so that no one is left with a subpart standard" doesn't fly.

[wierd]

The US believes strongly in "you get what you pay for."  That internally necessitates that the more you pay, the better the service.  Naturally, the power elite love it. (Nevermind what people SHOULD have been taught in civics class, which I hear they dont teach anymore.)

[Tiruin]

The US believes strongly in "you get what you pay for."  That internally necessitates that the more you pay, the better the service.  Naturally, the power elite love it. (Nevermind what people SHOULD have been taught in civics class, which I hear they dont teach anymore.)

I recall all my classes there back when I was in HS or earlier; why is this? O_o

[ChairmanPoo]

Mediation is not enforcement neo.  I will personally remove anyone who violates the Separation of Church and State, it is a fundamental principle of this nation, and I have taken an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

That isn't what separation of Church and State means.

The Church for example... can fund Presidential Candidates. The Church can petition government. The Church can create lobbies. The Pope (if he was American) could become President to my knowledge.

It just means the Church gets no special treatment or special sway over government matters.

If Pepsi could do it... A Religion can do it.

---

Interestingly enough this idea protects Religions as much as it protects Governments. As it wasn't unusual for a governing body to make sweeping changes to a religion.

The Pope is American! Not from the US, but he's American..

https://youtu.be/saF2wDEFtF0