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[Reelya]

No, the argument moved onto a tangent discussing the basis of that assertion itself, specifically the "everyone agrees X is a failed system" argument. We haven't touched on its relevance or lack of relevance to mod distribution at all, because if the premise isn't valid then none of the conclusions are even meaningful.

"Don't you know that spoons are obsolete because everyone agrees eggs are a failed mode of protein delivery?"

We're still on the "hold on, what's that about eggs?" part of the discussion and never got back to "and either way, that has nothing to do with spoons anyway".

~~~

But, getting back to that, I hope it was a joke, because the "Cathedral" model describes anarchism: many people working on their own, but they voluntarily contribute work to a central project, each person taking care not to mess with what they can know about the design intentions of anyone else: There is no central plan, but people put in any scaffolding that looks good as they go, and if someone else adds bad bits, those get torn out or fixed up later because people agree they look bad after all.

Basically that's the complete opposite of central planning. In fact, a centrally-controlled "plan" for the mods, e.g. licensed mod-makers only, who are clearly going to be given a protocol of do's and don't's by the Supreme Game Creator, is WAY closer to Soviet Communism than the "Cathedral model".

[Loud Whispers]

Oh yeah, I figure that after I posted the first time, so edited it to remove the "but" part.
Another thing that bugs me is this sort of racism. I heard this from a friend a few years back:

China can't make anything original, they can only imitate

I see nothing at all racist about this, that is the conclusion of an ignorant westerner tbqh. Absolutely haram

But ... go back a few decades and sustitude "Japan" in there, same quote.

China and Japan are not the same nor substitutes D:

For example, people say planes like the Chengdu J20 are "clones" of a number of American designs despite the size and lines of the fusilage, and shape of the wings etc, being completely different. e.g. the best comparison says the J20 is a knock off of the F22, but here's a picture. Spot the similarity if you can.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They're ... both planes. That's about it. Pretty much everything about the J20 is vastly different to even the closest American-made fighter they try and compare it to.

That's because you're talking to Americans who think Putin is advancing in the Korean peninsula. J20 is stolen tech, from a country that is world leader in industrial espionage. Oh yeah, they were also happy about this. Ask the Russians, they don't like selling their jets except in bulk for obvious reasons.

In a few decades it will be "but Indians can't make anything original, they can only imitate ... American, Japan and Chinese products".

India is already a world leader in innovation and business, its IT and Pharmaceutical industries dominating the world already :P

Yet China, with the largest population of any nation, with the highest average IQ of any nation, creates next to fuck all, innovates fuck all, earning a reputation of being a soulless wasteland compared to thunderstorms of creativity elsewhere. Why? The problem is China itself. Take the Chinese away from useless communists and they give you Hong Kong and Singapore, cities synonymous with being on the cutting edge vanguard, forging the modern world. To say nothing of Taiwan, which of course is #1. Of course the Chinese government took a look at Hong Kong and decided they needed to change that and make it just as shit as its own government. Simply put, China lacks sufficient legal protection and enforcement for inventors, there is nothing stopping anyone wealthier from copying your idea and running you into the dirt without a single penny of compensation, unless you grease the palms of some officials here and there. There are also issues in that China has with Empiricism and Teamwork based on Enlightenment ideals which of course are a fucking western infection which must be excised. COMMUNISM FFS

Oh and the USA is a piece of shit too to Chinese people. Americans have had a history of discriminating against Chinese and Japanese Americans and decided that as progressives, they must continue this legacy. Probably doesn't help that in the creative arts, Americans take successful Chinese or Japanese films and replace all the actors with white and black Americans, giving them fuck all oscars or credit for their creativity in MS Western culture. In USA or China, Chinese innovate in spite of their shitty countries lol, unsurprising then that they have fuck all reputation for creativity. Any time people think of Chinese inventions they only think of ancient ones, because China's role as the forefront of the world's minds is ancient

But lemme get 2deep4u political commentary from Ameripol thred:

But yes, equality is about lifting everyone up to the same level, not flattening it out downwards, whenever possible.
And yes Asians are discriminated against because they a. do well enough on their own not to need or be considered deserving of protection(basically they aren't really considered people of color; for example, look at articles about silicon valley's lack of diversity and then you look and realize they're lumping asians and caucasians together for their definition of diversity), b. are often conservative, in older generations, which means they don't really form that much of voterbase for Democrats, and  c. there's barely any of them compared to other minority groups which honestly is probably the biggest factor. 4.7% of the United States population is Asian, compared to 12.2% African American, and like one in six people in the US identifies as Hispanic or Latino.

So it is ok to be racist to Chinese and ensure they actively do worse in life, but don't ever call them uncreative? Does it not seem like the Americans' priority lies in covering up problems they are helping to cause, instead of actually solving them? It seems brutal that Americans punish them for succeeding, then criticize those who point out they are not succeeding? Tis' madness :z

Smh tbqh only Trudeau is current year tolerant to Chinese, and they had to buy him with money xD

[Sergarr]

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system.

Capitalism isn't a perfect system either. Great for quickly industrialising a country, but recall that it was also responsible for rampant slave/child labor and ecological devestation.
Nah, socialdemocratik is where it's at.

Social democracy is a temporary system that only exists thanks to post-WW2 population boom. It will fail in the next 10-20 years, when the demographic situation will no longer afford to support it.

The Great Leap Forward refers to industrialization in China. Which, sure, people do point out a few misteps, but without that China wouldn't be the scary superpower-in-making now.

Let's compare China and India. They both have the same population roughly.

India 1960 - $40 billion GDP (capitalist) => $1.8 trillion
China 1960, $60 billion GDP (communist) => $9.2 trillion

For all the "lol Mao dun fuked up" stuff, he actually seems to have done better than "yay India" which is supposedly an example for the free market.

The greatest famine in the human history is "a few missteps"? And China only really started growing after they turned its economy capitalist. It did capitalism much better than India, that's the difference. If Indians got rid of their inefficiencies and corruption, they would rise in no time.

see my sig

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism (which is what this "Cathedral" essentially means) is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system. In capitalism, private property rights are important. If you don't respect private property rights and try to "nationalize" stuff or "give it to the people", it doesn't work and everyone gets poorer as a result. Just look at the shit Venezuela is currently in.

in Catalonia it worked very well with the POUM and the anarchists, until Stalin's sycophants burned it off lest it offended the more right-wing republicans.

A system that cannot survive outside pressure is not a system that you want to implement in your country. Capitalism doesn't require lack of outside interference in order to work. It's obviously superior in that regard.

Are you people seriously using state-scale economic systems (and poor examples thereof) to argue for or against a video game mod distribution framework? False equivalency much?

The mind cancer of communism, collectivism and glorified idiocy needs to be opposed everywhere it tries to infiltrate our great capitalistic, individualistic society of success. It's not a false equivalency, either:

Basic Deal

The basic deal of the OML would be: I (the creator of this mod) will allow you (the end user) to use my mod, if you agree that any mods that you produce and distribute will be at least Openable Distribution. If you do not agree to these terms, then not only may you not use my mod, but you may not keep a copy of this mod.

Other Mechanisms

Aside from the Open Modding license, a couple of other mechanisms are possible to help promote the Cathedral model.
...
Replacement Mods

Another option would be to create open versions of non-open mods. E.g., if the author of a mod refuses to open it, yet it implements a good and generally useful idea, then someone might decide to create an open version of the mod. Part of the benefit of this approach is that just the threat of it may be sufficient to encourage the original modder to open his mod. (Note that this sort of approach would likely only work when the original mod is relatively simple. E.g., an invisible armor mod.)

Stealing people's successful ideas and robbing them of their entirely justified profit is one of the basic tenets of communism. It's what communists have done in every country they came to power, and that's what they've tried to do with the modding community - and they've almost succeeded, given that the very idea of paying people for their many, many hours of work has been treated as something almost unthinkable within it.

Almost, but not quite. Thanks to our capitalists comrades in Steam, the content creators can now be properly repaid for their hard, successful work. Let's hope that Steam won't listen to communists and shut it down once again. Success needs to be rewarded properly, after all. And it would benefit the entire society as a whole, because that's what capitalism does.

[Tack]

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system.

Capitalism isn't a perfect system either. Great for quickly industrialising a country, but recall that it was also responsible for rampant slave/child labor and ecological devestation.
Nah, socialdemocratik is where it's at.

Social democracy is a temporary system that only exists thanks to post-WW2 population boom. It will fail in the next 10-20 years, when the demographic situation will no longer afford to support it.

Aging population isn't a thing which only affects certain government types. The communists will be just as hard off as the capitalists.
Also, it's democracy. Nobody is going to vote for a leader who says 'Let's re-implement true capitalism and let all these useless people fend for themselves and die'.
I guess at least until the economy crashes.

[George_Chickens]

... communists have infiltrated the mod community? The modding culture built up over decades of sharing assets for the improvement of a product is secret communism?

^WAT

[ChairmanPoo]

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system.

Capitalism isn't a perfect system either. Great for quickly industrialising a country, but recall that it was also responsible for rampant slave/child labor and ecological devestation.
Nah, socialdemocratik is where it's at.

Social democracy is a temporary system that only exists thanks to post-WW2 population boom. It will fail in the next 10-20 years, when the demographic situation will no longer afford to support it.

The Great Leap Forward refers to industrialization in China. Which, sure, people do point out a few misteps, but without that China wouldn't be the scary superpower-in-making now.

Let's compare China and India. They both have the same population roughly.

India 1960 - $40 billion GDP (capitalist) => $1.8 trillion
China 1960, $60 billion GDP (communist) => $9.2 trillion

For all the "lol Mao dun fuked up" stuff, he actually seems to have done better than "yay India" which is supposedly an example for the free market.

The greatest famine in the human history is "a few missteps"? And China only really started growing after they turned its economy capitalist. It did capitalism much better than India, that's the difference. If Indians got rid of their inefficiencies and corruption, they would rise in no time.

see my sig

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism (which is what this "Cathedral" essentially means) is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system. In capitalism, private property rights are important. If you don't respect private property rights and try to "nationalize" stuff or "give it to the people", it doesn't work and everyone gets poorer as a result. Just look at the shit Venezuela is currently in.

in Catalonia it worked very well with the POUM and the anarchists, until Stalin's sycophants burned it off lest it offended the more right-wing republicans.

A system that cannot survive outside pressure is not a system that you want to implement in your country. Capitalism doesn't require lack of outside interference in order to work. It's obviously superior in that regard.

Are you people seriously using state-scale economic systems (and poor examples thereof) to argue for or against a video game mod distribution framework? False equivalency much?

The mind cancer of communism, collectivism and glorified idiocy needs to be opposed everywhere it tries to infiltrate our great capitalistic, individualistic society of success. It's not a false equivalency, either:

Basic Deal

The basic deal of the OML would be: I (the creator of this mod) will allow you (the end user) to use my mod, if you agree that any mods that you produce and distribute will be at least Openable Distribution. If you do not agree to these terms, then not only may you not use my mod, but you may not keep a copy of this mod.

Other Mechanisms

Aside from the Open Modding license, a couple of other mechanisms are possible to help promote the Cathedral model.
...
Replacement Mods

Another option would be to create open versions of non-open mods. E.g., if the author of a mod refuses to open it, yet it implements a good and generally useful idea, then someone might decide to create an open version of the mod. Part of the benefit of this approach is that just the threat of it may be sufficient to encourage the original modder to open his mod. (Note that this sort of approach would likely only work when the original mod is relatively simple. E.g., an invisible armor mod.)

Stealing people's successful ideas and robbing them of their entirely justified profit is one of the basic tenets of communism. It's what communists have done in every country they came to power, and that's what they've tried to do with the modding community - and they've almost succeeded, given that the very idea of paying people for their many, many hours of work has been treated as something almost unthinkable within it.

Almost, but not quite. Thanks to our capitalists comrades in Steam, the content creators can now be properly repaid for their hard, successful work. Let's hope that Steam won't listen to communists and shut it down once again. Success needs to be rewarded properly, after all. And it would benefit the entire society as a whole, because that's what capitalism does.

LOL. By tht rule of thumb western style democracy doesnt work in Ukraine either given that it disnt resist infliltration by Russian cronies either, mmmh?

OR the capitalistic republic in Spain, given that it succumbed to the nazifascist vultures DESPITE humoring the Russians in purging out the POUM and the anarchists.

Really, you write as if it was the Republic's fault that the whole world sat on its hands while Italians, Germans, and Portuguese rampaged through the peninsula. (Yes, the Russians did provide some help. After demanding dough, of course. Not so selfless after all)

Really, what you are saying doesnt make any sense, as any system can fall with enough external pressure. Even your strongman Putin.


***PD: I do recognize and honor the role of the International Brigades in the Civil War. Even if our current goverment does not 

[Loud Whispers]

Social democracy is a temporary system that only exists thanks to post-WW2 population boom. It will fail in the next 10-20 years, when the demographic situation will no longer afford to support it.

Making budget cuts =/= Abolishment of social democracy

The greatest famine in the human history is "a few missteps"?

Stalin and Mao were just fixing their overpopulation issue with a rousing spot of eradication

And China only really started growing after they turned its economy capitalist. It did capitalism much better than India, that's the difference. If Indians got rid of their inefficiencies and corruption, they would rise in no time.

There's a big problem in that India doesn't really exist, being a country of countries where every Prime Minister must decide just how centralized their rule will be. Those who rule like autocrats maintain unity but sacrifice the efficiency of local governance, in a country already bloated by bureaucracy, whilst those who give full reign to their cabinet and chief ministers must be able to deal with the ensuing factionalism that stops all of India moving in the same direction. That, and India has too many people. The concept of creating enough jobs for millions of new workers entering the workforce every year is a mind boggling challenge to tackle whilst simultaneously modernizing the Indian state, government and military
India has many challenges to face, very unique to India

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism (which is what this "Cathedral" essentially means) is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system. In capitalism, private property rights are important. If you don't respect private property rights and try to "nationalize" stuff or "give it to the people", it doesn't work and everyone gets poorer as a result. Just look at the shit Venezuela is currently in.

Eh, capitalism is a beautiful system but has a tendency towards taking control away from anything that threatens profits, such things have included governments, workers and social welfare, whilst giving more power via capital to oligarchs and corporations. Thus, with the failure of communism being for westerners a thing of the past or a consequence of foreign lands out of sight and out of mind, the idea of a communist solution to problems within very visible range is an attractive one

The mind cancer of communism, collectivism and glorified idiocy needs to be opposed everywhere it tries to infiltrate our great capitalistic, individualistic society of success. It's not a false equivalency, either:

Some would argue that capitalism likewise creates glorifications of idiocy

[Neonivek]

Are you saying an Amoral Idiot could end up the leader of a Capitalist system?

That is REDICULOUS! IMPOSSIBLE!!!

[George_Chickens]

I don't understand how anyone can view Valve's implementation of paid mods with anything but suspicion and contempt. Last time it was tried, it resulted in free and shared assets being stolen for paid mods, major bugfixes being hidden behind paywalls, general discontent, modders leaving as their work was taken and sold, and worst of all, Bethesda and Valve took the lion's share of the profit and left the modders with cents.

Even if you're so deep in the sewer of ideology that everything needs a paid market, I don't see how you can support that.

[Neonivek]

I don't understand how anyone can view Valve's implementation of paid mods with anything but suspicion and contempt. Last time it was tried, it resulted in free and shared assets being stolen for paid mods, major bugfixes being hidden behind paywalls, general discontent, modders leaving as their work was taken and sold, and worst of all, Bethesda and Valve took the lion's share of the profit and left the modders with cents.

Even if you're so deep in the sewer of ideology that everything needs a paid market, I don't see how you can support that.

Yeah pretty much...

I'd be all for Paid Mods... If there was a good system to support it.

But this isn't a good system. All the more evident by the fact that the major supporters are simply moralizing and emoting instead of trying to calm down people with honest suspicion.

Like being against building a bridge and people just cry at you talking about how you must be against people going to work on time... Yet your concern is that they are not building that bridge properly and it is going to collapse being a far worse situation for everyone than that bridge not existing in the first place... BUT OHH NO the poor workers and drivers! won't anyone think about their needs? *eye roll*

Not to mention that Paid mods, and I know it isn't that obvious, move mods out of the gray area and right into the section where companies would be more justified in suing you for making a mod. After all they are now a commercial item on a commercial market...

---

NOT TO MENTION that this is a place that has a Free Market... Switching over to a paid market. Not a new paid market.

I've gone into business for myself and in that business there are places where things are 100% free AND where they will cost money. I don't get to advertise in the free areas.

I am not being oppressed. The reason why there are very few paid mods in existence is two-fold
1) Very few people want to pay for mods... Because they exist purely as a Alternative market meant to get similar products for cheaper.
2) It is a VERY iffy thing.. legally. There are already games that threaten to sue you if you modify them in anyway (EULA!) or that anything you do in them is owned by them.

[Loud Whispers]

Are you saying an Amoral Idiot could end up the leader of a Capitalist system?

That is REDICULOUS! IMPOSSIBLE!!!

[Intense surprise intensifies]

[George_Chickens]

Not to mention that Paid mods, and I know it isn't that obvious, move mods out of the gray area and right into the section where companies would be more justified in suing you for making a mod. After all they are now a commercial item on a commercial market...

And that's not even taking into account the act of asset sharing between mods, which would likely be eradicated when money comes into play. Jeez, the more I think about paid mods, the worse it seems.

[Neonivek]

Not to mention that Paid mods, and I know it isn't that obvious, move mods out of the gray area and right into the section where companies would be more justified in suing you for making a mod. After all they are now a commercial item on a commercial market...

And that's not even taking into account the act of asset sharing between mods, which would likely be eradicated when money comes into play.

Plus there is a question on what assets ARE and ARE NOT allowed to be shared.

If I make a mod that switches ammo to unlimited... Am I the only one allowed to use unlimited ammo in mod form?

Valve doesn't care because they aren't the ones paying for it... We are. It is why they took so long to close certain profitable loop holes in their systems.

[Reelya]

I think you guys really are over-reacting

If I make a mod that switches ammo to unlimited... Am I the only one allowed to use unlimited ammo in mod form?

No, because that can't be copyrighted since it's an idea, and you can't copyright ideas. If it's a particular image or sound, then you could. Copyrights only apply to things that can be seen or heard.

Valve doesn't care because they aren't the ones paying for it... We are. It is why they took so long to close certain profitable loop holes in their systems.

Then just don't buy it. It's going to be up to the market for people to pay what they believe something is worth.

And that's not even taking into account the act of asset sharing between mods, which would likely be eradicated when money comes into play. Jeez, the more I think about paid mods, the worse it seems.

That will only affect those who make mods as a business, nobody else is going to be affected. Nothing is to stop existing modders still making the same mods they make now, and paid modders will have to compete with free mods which are just as good as free mods are now. In other words, they'll offer a completely different type of product to free mods, because otherwise nobody will buy it, so instead of gameplay tweaks - which cannot be copyrighted - they will switch to making self-contained DLC content packs only, which can in fact be copyrighted.

So the end result won't be a whole lot different than now, you'll have amateurs modding away for no money and you'll have ex-modders who've formed companies and are churning out additional themed DLC packs for popular games. And that's probably only going to be for the big games. Hardly anyone is going to try and "monetize" Morrowind DLC packs, the paid-modders will in fact be companies who build DLC for whatever is the "latest game" on the market.

[Sergarr]

Social democracy is a temporary system that only exists thanks to post-WW2 population boom. It will fail in the next 10-20 years, when the demographic situation will no longer afford to support it.

Making budget cuts =/= Abolishment of social democracy

Budget cuts are not going to cut it against such a great reduction in workforce combined with a great increase in number of useless old people pensioners.

I thought everyone has already got the point that communism (which is what this "Cathedral" essentially means) is a failed ideology and that supporting it means supporting failure, but I guess some people still don't appreciate the beauty of the capitalist system, even when everything around them has been created due to this very efficient system. In capitalism, private property rights are important. If you don't respect private property rights and try to "nationalize" stuff or "give it to the people", it doesn't work and everyone gets poorer as a result. Just look at the shit Venezuela is currently in.

Eh, capitalism is a beautiful system but has a tendency towards taking control away from anything that threatens profits, such things have included governments, workers and social welfare, whilst giving more power via capital to oligarchs and corporations. Thus, with the failure of communism being for westerners a thing of the past or a consequence of foreign lands out of sight and out of mind, the idea of a communist solution to problems within very visible range is an attractive one

Capitalism does have a problem with sliding into Republican plutocracy, just like it has a problem with sliding into Russian communism. But it's possible to keep them both in check, as long as you don't allow either of these two groups to use the other one to boost themselves.

I don't understand how anyone can view Valve's implementation of paid mods with anything but suspicion and contempt. Last time it was tried, it resulted in free and shared assets being stolen for paid mods, major bugfixes being hidden behind paywalls, general discontent, modders leaving as their work was taken and sold, and worst of all, Bethesda and Valve took the lion's share of the profit and left the modders with cents.

Even if you're so deep in the sewer of ideology that everything needs a paid market, I don't see how you can support that.

All of these things that you've described are normal for a communist-capitalist shock therapy. It gets better over time, as long as you don't pull a Russia.

Not to mention that Paid mods, and I know it isn't that obvious, move mods out of the gray area and right into the section where companies would be more justified in suing you for making a mod. After all they are now a commercial item on a commercial market...

And that's not even taking into account the act of asset sharing between mods, which would likely be eradicated when money comes into play. Jeez, the more I think about paid mods, the worse it seems.

You know that people could just... pay for those assets? You know, a thing that you can have when you have money, which they'll have due to being able to profit from their mods?

Really, all of this sounds like using the 90s turmoil of ex-Warsaw Pact to prove that capitalism is a total failure.