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[Putnam]

who thought this was a good idea lmao

[Neonivek]

who thought this was a good idea lmao

I find it weird that people have become so extremely anti-resale... It is as if gaming companies managed to finally instill that idea into people's heads and finally succeeded.

Note: I know there are other issues... But why ohh why is there anything against resale?

[Rolan7]

I mean, resale actually doesn't make any sense for digital media (or even, arguably, physical media like books).  The media is almost worthless compared to the information stored on it.  That's what's being sold, so resellers like Gamestop honestly don't deserve the business.

I did buy a lot of games from Gamestop, but they were games where publishers weren't pursuing new sales anymore.  Abandonware.
Though publishers abandon games relatively quickly *because* of the massive resale market, so I still benefited from it.  It's wrong, though, and it drives up the day-1 price of games.  Like movies, they need to make back most of their expenses in a few weeks.

That said, G2A comes across pretty sympathetic in that AMA.  The most upvoted complaints are really vitriolic considering I've never even heard of them.  I get the impression G2A is probably guilty, but they sure presented themselves well here.  I think it was to their benefit.

Edit:  *never even heard of the complaints.  I've heard of G2A, though I don't think I've done business with them.  At this point my chances of buying from them are up from basically nothing to "maybe", since I hadn't heard anything about them in a while.
Does Greenman Gaming have any similar scandal?  Because I've bought from GMG and it went smoothly, massive discounts too.

[Reelya]

I think there's more to it than merely resale, wasn't G2A where people used bots to steal keys then sell them for money? It sent lots of indies broke, actually.

http://kotaku.com/g2a-scammer-explains-how-he-profited-off-stolen-indie-g-1784540664

MangaGamer, a localizer of adult visual novels, wanted to reward customers who’d bought games through their website with free Steam keys. Two years into the promotion, a hacker allegedly used stolen credit cards to fraudulently buy hundreds of games. The scam cost MangaGamer tens of thousands of dollars. Why’d the hacker do it? To sell keys on the controversial marketplace G2A.

Yeah, there are websites where you can generate fake VISA numbers and the like, and the banks are happy to bill the company for that before it bounces back as a fake card number, so scammers were buying steam games and the like with these bot-generated fake Visas, buying masses of games then selling them for a small amount on G2A.

[Neonivek]

Abandonware.

That isn't QUITE the definition of abandonware.

It is more... games that are kind of in a nebulous state.

I think there's more to it than merely resale, wasn't G2A where people used bots to steal special offer keys then sell them for money? It sent lots of indies broke, actually.

There are definitely good reasons to hate G2A... Such as its Shield system.

But why the focus on Resale at all? Why even mention that as an issue? I mean maybe because it leads to people loading up on games that are on sale... but THAT isn't what people are complaining about.

[Tack]

I think it's because some really big VA's spoke out about resale, and frankly I can get on that bandwagon. Resale is a way for the middleman to make a cut without the developers getting a cent. It's a straight-up division of the supply and demand process.

[Teneb]

But why the focus on Resale at all? Why even mention that as an issue? I mean maybe because it leads to people loading up on games that are on sale... but THAT isn't what people are complaining about.

Because, as Reelya said, a lot of the resales on G2A are stolen, which causes great damage to indies (and non-indies for that matter) due to chargebacks.

[Reelya]

You can't resell a steam key if you actually installed it, you can only resell keys you haven't registered yet. So the "resale" thing is a misleading argument since Steam just doesn't work like that.. So G2A is full of people selling keys for never-played games they snazzled as scams.

Sure, a few people might be reselling individual keys they got as gifts or on special. But the specials are there so that people can always get something cheap, not so people can be scalpers. They don't actually make much on the sales games. It's not like indies are all profit making giants.

Also, resale makes sense for physical goods. For digital copies, well if you have a 1-person license for a game, you know that. you pay e.g. 50 cents for a digital game license rather than $5-$10 for a physical copy of the same game in a shop. It's fair that you can't share the digital copy with 50 friends, because the market price already takes that into account. That's part of why they're so much cheaper, because the rights are different.

People are like "I bought this song on iTunes for 50 cents, why can't I copy it for all my friends?" ... well that's because the people need to make a living and they've already discounted the price based on the format, and people already adjust what they're willing to pay based on the rights given. We just haven't gotten used to the idea of non-physical media yet. Lending and copying it for your friends just no longer makes sense.

[Rolan7]

Abandonware.

That isn't QUITE the definition of abandonware.

It is more... games that are kind of in a nebulous state.

I think there's more to it than merely resale, wasn't G2A where people used bots to steal special offer keys then sell them for money? It sent lots of indies broke, actually.

There are definitely good reasons to hate G2A... Such as its Shield system.

But why the focus on Resale at all? Why even mention that as an issue? I mean maybe because it leads to people loading up on games that are on sale... but THAT isn't what people are complaining about.

They seemed to direct the conversation to resale.  Maybe to distract from their particular malfeasance?

And "abandonware" is a nebulous term, but I think I'm fair to call it games which are not actively being published.  Though usually that ends up meaning "games which haven't been published in a few years".  I'd honestly like to know more about what you think it means.

If I pirate, or buy used- either way, the developers and publisher don't see a cent.  That's why I like Steam so much - I can conveniently support them at a massive yet appropriate discount, so many years later.  Granted many people have probably changed jobs, but still, it raises the projected value of creating new content with lasting value.

[Neonivek]

I think it's because some really big VA's spoke out about resale, and frankly I can get on that bandwagon. Resale is a way for the middleman to make a cut without the developers getting a cent. It's a straight-up division of the supply and demand process.

Except it is kind of an essential part of everyday living and preventing it is basically companies taking ownership of your possessions. In fact MOST "Resale" is for no money at all.

In fact the majority of Anti-piracy is anti-resale given a more innocent title.

---

But just to highlight the ridiculousness of this all... You buy Harry Potter, the book... You read it... Your done. So you put it up on Amazon for 5 bucks.

THAT is Resale, that is the boogyman of developers! (well ok... Producers.)

----

They seemed to direct the conversation to resale.  Maybe to distract from their particular malfeasance?

I think it is more that the legal pressure being put on them is from the fact that they are a resale platform. Something that several countries have been having a lot of issues with.

With some passing laws to prevent the obstruction of resale (UK) and some ATTEMPTING to employ laws prohibiting resale (USA)

If G2A gets shut down it won't be because of the sheer amount of shady business going on in the background (Yeah A LOT to hate G2A over)... It will be because of resale.

---

Now as I say this... The BIG issue with Resale and G2A has a much simpler comparison.

G2A is less like resale... like say amazon.

G2A is like a platform for Ticket Scalpers... But why is Ticket Scalping often illegal? Ohh right because some people will just buy up a ton of tickets and sell them at an increased price. It is banned not because there is anything wrong with someone reselling their ticket that they won't use.

G2A's prices come from people buying a lot of copies of games on sale.

G2A often feels like a shady Pawn shop.

[Rolan7]

I think it's because some really big VA's spoke out about resale, and frankly I can get on that bandwagon. Resale is a way for the middleman to make a cut without the developers getting a cent. It's a straight-up division of the supply and demand process.

Except it is kind of an essential part of everyday living and preventing it is basically companies taking ownership of your possessions. In fact MOST "Resale" is for no money at all.

In fact the majority of Anti-piracy is anti-resale given a more innocent title.

---

But just to highlight the ridiculousness of this all... You buy Harry Potter, the book... You read it... Your done. So you put it up on Amazon for 5 bucks.

THAT is Resale, that is the boogyman of developers! (well ok... Producers.)

Uh yeah, and so someone new gets to read Harry Potter, yet Rowling gets nothing.
So it's just like piracy except two people who *aren't* the content creator (or publisher) exchange money.

[Neonivek]

I can't tell... if your joking or not Rolan7... and I am being serious

Because... Resale is basically an institution and is included in the lawbooks. Typically if there is moralizing it is in favor of resale against the interests of corporations.

Rather then against the interest of people who are living their lives doing something with their things instead of throwing it out.

In fact donations... Is often another form of resale... Libraries are a form of resale.

Rowling has no ownership over that book. She doesn't deserve to scrape every possible sale off of everyone who could possibly read it. She deserves to be paid, but this is fascist.

[Rolan7]

There's a difference between selling a piece of clothing which gets passed down two generations, and passing on a piece of software which could be copied to a hundred places.  Even if it's probably sequential.

Even if it's purely sequential, that's still the choice of the content creators.  Buying a ticket to a movie doesn't give you a right to let someone else in for the next showing.  Neither does buying a game *necessarily* give you the right to pass that experience on to someone else, much less for money.  And the licenses we agree to pretty explicitly deny that, IIRC, and I think that's fair.

Edit:  Replying to your edit...  She doesn't own that book, but a game developer does often own the game.  They're pretty clear about that, if you read the licenses.

[Neonivek]

There's a difference between selling a piece of clothing which gets passed down two generations, and passing on a piece of software which could be copied to a hundred places.  Even if it's probably sequential.

Even if it's purely sequential, that's still the choice of the content creators.  Buying a ticket to a movie doesn't give you a right to let someone else in for the next showing.  Neither does buying a game *necessarily* give you the right to pass that experience on to someone else, much less for money.  And the licenses we agree to pretty explicitly deny that, IIRC, and I think that's fair.

Edit:  Replying to your edit...  She doesn't own that book, but a game developer does often own the game.  They're pretty clear about that, if you read the licenses.

The Licenses are legal BSery and legally non-functional. Especially since you get the licenses AFTER you buy the game with no recourse if you do not want to sign (Imagine if cars worked like that. You buy them THEN you need the documentation). That is why courts tend to throw out that aspect (that and the contract is dubious, and people tend not to read it). Heck in my country it goes even further and we have a law that outright states that they have absolutely no legal power. Typically what stops you from copying it is other laws (Digital rights act I believe)

Also there is no difference between physical media and digital EXCEPT that one can make copies. Yet we are talking about RESALE not "Piracy". Someone actually bought a copy and is giving up that copy for reimbursement.

It is also illegal to make copies of physical media. It would be illegal, for example, to sew a copy of my pants and sell them.

[Rolan7]

Pretty sure you *are* allowed to return games, in most countries.  There's a reason Steam was forced to do so, even if it took a while.
Considering that they still don't bother to let you play a game with literally advertising it to anyone you've ever friended, I doubt it's something they just felt like doing

I'll admit I'm conflating console games and PC games to some extent.  But it's not that hard to copy console games if you really want to.

And if you sewed me a handmade duplicate of your pants, I'm pretty sure that would be legal.
and only slightly weird