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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14855300 times)

Sonlirain

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100830 on: April 19, 2016, 08:39:30 pm »

http://www.navyfield.com/
I have an account there but after changing my service provider they just say i'm banned and won't even let me log into the forum (never mind the game).
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Greiger

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100831 on: April 19, 2016, 08:44:56 pm »

Your IPv4 address may have been used by someone who was banned in the past.   

It's a very common complaint from customers where I work, and a very annoying one since the ISP I work for has no way to actually change a customer's IP addy short of replacing equipment, or disconnecting service for half a month.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100832 on: April 19, 2016, 08:46:39 pm »

Also yes, kosher and halal butchery is bad. Makes normal cattle farming look less bad, which is really saying something.
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The halal code stipulates that animals are killed quickly with one sweep of a knife. They should not see the knife, or witness the death of other animals.
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Greiger

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100833 on: April 19, 2016, 08:54:54 pm »

I think the main difference is that animals are rendered unconscious first, before their throats are slit (or otherwise killed).  However modern stunning methods have the chance of killing the animal outright, which would render the meat non-kosher(because it was not killed with the knife) and 'useless'.

I am no expert on either slaughtering of animals or kosher methods.  Take with salt.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 08:56:59 pm by Greiger »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100834 on: April 19, 2016, 09:01:06 pm »

I'm still at a loss as to how killing the animal in one stroke is in any way inhumane.
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Greiger

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100835 on: April 19, 2016, 09:05:46 pm »

vOv

I think it's because most folks feel that a blunt strike (or electrical shock after further research) to knock something out would be less painful than a lethal sharp strike to the throat.  There is also the time it takes for the animal to bleed out after it's throat is slit, but from my limited understanding of biology the method described would only take a matter of milliseconds anyway.

I don't honestly 'prefer' either method myself.  Someone who actually feels kosher methods are worse may have more insight than me.  But that's my best guess. 
EDIT: After a bit of thought some folks may not like kosher methods because if a method is found that can be proven to be 100% pain free 100% of the time, the folks who follow kosher methods would not follow it because the animal must be killed with a knife.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:15:27 pm by Greiger »
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100836 on: April 19, 2016, 10:06:35 pm »

The argument is that it's "one stroke" followed by like 2-8 seconds of painful bleeding out before the animal loses consciousness. Some neurology appears to point to this being true, while the counterargument seems to be "Well it's supposed to be painless." Which I suppose is enough when God's giving the instructions? Since he wouldn't tell people the wrong way to do things.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100837 on: April 19, 2016, 10:16:52 pm »

I... guess we could always get some of the bigger proponents to, like. Check? Pain et al is a fairly similar process between us and livestock, s'far as I'm aware. At least the initial bit, if not the outright bleeding out and dying. Pretty sure we have the medical technology to keep someone from keeling over to the former, at least, these days. Maybe even normally fatal exsanguination, with some preparation.

Be a metal as hell way to provide an argument for the discussion.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100838 on: April 19, 2016, 10:27:34 pm »

Before we talk about whether <8 seconds of bleed to unconsciousness is inhumane, we should look at issues in the American system:
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They say “the chain” — production line — still moves too fast to give “the knocker” enough time to adequately stun cows senseless with a hand-held device that thrusts a steel bolt into their skulls.

This stuff was going on at least as recently as 2012. USDA give lip service to humane conditions, but they take the side of the meat industry against their own inspectors every time, until something publicly blows up in their faces, at which point they grudgingly press charges against the producer. Until it happens again exactly the same way. So this wonderful "non kosher/halal" American butchery winds up sending live conscious animals down a processing line where they're systematically sliced to bits. At the end if the day, the throat-cutting at least guarantees they are dead before the processing begins. The "stun gun" is lip service to the concept of being humane. Often, it is less effective than the trusty old knife.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:58:38 pm by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100839 on: April 19, 2016, 10:55:32 pm »

Whelp I always thought "Forced Diversity" was something that people argued reasonably but some people applied overzealously. Afterall I can think of one or two characters "I" would give that label.

But apparently nope... "Forced" means... Exists.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100840 on: April 19, 2016, 11:06:14 pm »

Also note that cuts made with extremely sharp blades tend to be painless. There's merit to that. It's why you have things like slaughterhouse workers giving themselves massive cuts and not even noticing until they see the blood pooling. Simple compression of the carotid arteries (in human cases) results in unconsciousness in <20s; the butchering process is immediate and total severing of blood flow to the brain combined with loss of pressure in the blood vessels in the brain, with a cut fine enough to not be particularly painful.

If I was going to be butchered, I'd much rather go out like that than in the typical slaughterhouse methods, if only because I'm damned well going to be dead dead dead before they start chopping me up.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100841 on: April 19, 2016, 11:09:02 pm »

Whelp I always thought "Forced Diversity" was something that people argued reasonably but some people applied overzealously. Afterall I can think of one or two characters "I" would give that label.

But apparently nope... "Forced" means... Exists.
Who does it mean that to?

The concept of "Forced Diversity" to me would mean to shoe-horn "diversity" into something, with all the potential problems that entails. e.g. minorities and women labeled as the "diversity hire" can lose respect (the idea is that they only got in due to a quota, not ability). This can even affect minorities and women who did get in on merit. Say the diversity policy calls for two blacks + two women on your board. If you had two high-scoring black men and two high-scoring women in your intake, then you'd accept those people, and tick off "quotas: filled". A big pat on the back, when you didn't actually do a single thing to help women or black people. All you did was literally tick the box. Now, they would have gotten in even without the quotas, but the mere existence of the quotas can make people assume they got accepted because of that. And since your actual score on any hiring criteria is usually confidential information, it's not easy to escape that stigma.

Sure, it's easy to mislabel all occurrences of things being diverse as "Forced Diversity", but this is merely playing off what I described above, but extending it to a societal level. The mere existence of quotas in one area can tarnish the respect for the subgroup who benefits from the quotas, in other areas of their life, even where quotas don't exist.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 11:12:48 pm by Reelya »
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Putnam

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100842 on: April 19, 2016, 11:10:52 pm »

I think it's referring to media, especially fantasy, where, yeah, any non-hetero or non-white characters tend to be accused of being "shoehorned" in.

Orange Wizard

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100843 on: April 19, 2016, 11:17:28 pm »

To be fair, both sides of the argument complain about that. Or one side complains about both. Something something cake.
The Guardian keeps making articles, for instance, about how they want more diversity in films/video games and then go on about how the women/minorities are dying or being cast as villains or whatever.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #100844 on: April 19, 2016, 11:22:52 pm »

If I was going to be butchered, I'd much rather go out like that than in the typical slaughterhouse methods, if only because I'm damned well going to be dead dead dead before they start chopping me up.
I sorta' get the sentiment, FD, but... honestly, if I'm going to kill you and eat you, what you want matters to me strictly to the extent performing the action would effect the taste and cost of your meat. Maybe some concern regarding the psychological health of whoever butchers you, but... that's about it.

If we're already committed to a campaign of eugenics and butchery (and we're shoved up that further than an unharvested haggis casing), we're pretty far past the point of further concern for the morality of the situation, y'know? Time to start measuring cost efficiency. Y'can attempt to make the argument that at least you're not heaping excess suffering on top of things, but that falls kinda' flat considering what you're doing, heh.

That said, so far as I'm aware the optimal point regarding that sort of heuristic is somewhere (not entirely nailed down, yet -- iirc, there's some pretty big methodology arguments going on right now regarding livestock, not just in regards to best butchery practices) between throat-slitting and chucking them flailing into the grinder, so it's not like there's not still plenty of room to argue for better conditions. Especially if throwing them in live is making a difference regarding the taste or maintenance costs or whatev'.
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