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[Sonlirain]

http://www.navyfield.com/
I have an account there but after changing my service provider they just say i'm banned and won't even let me log into the forum (never mind the game).

[Greiger]

Your IPv4 address may have been used by someone who was banned in the past.   

It's a very common complaint from customers where I work, and a very annoying one since the ISP I work for has no way to actually change a customer's IP addy short of replacing equipment, or disconnecting service for half a month.

[Orange Wizard]

Also yes, kosher and halal butchery is bad. Makes normal cattle farming look less bad, which is really saying something.

The halal code stipulates that animals are killed quickly with one sweep of a knife. They should not see the knife, or witness the death of other animals.

[Greiger]

I think the main difference is that animals are rendered unconscious first, before their throats are slit (or otherwise killed).  However modern stunning methods have the chance of killing the animal outright, which would render the meat non-kosher(because it was not killed with the knife) and 'useless'.

I am no expert on either slaughtering of animals or kosher methods.  Take with salt.

[Orange Wizard]

I'm still at a loss as to how killing the animal in one stroke is in any way inhumane.

[Greiger]

vOv

I think it's because most folks feel that a blunt strike (or electrical shock after further research) to knock something out would be less painful than a lethal sharp strike to the throat.  There is also the time it takes for the animal to bleed out after it's throat is slit, but from my limited understanding of biology the method described would only take a matter of milliseconds anyway.

I don't honestly 'prefer' either method myself.  Someone who actually feels kosher methods are worse may have more insight than me.  But that's my best guess. 
EDIT: After a bit of thought some folks may not like kosher methods because if a method is found that can be proven to be 100% pain free 100% of the time, the folks who follow kosher methods would not follow it because the animal must be killed with a knife.

[penguinofhonor]

The argument is that it's "one stroke" followed by like 2-8 seconds of painful bleeding out before the animal loses consciousness. Some neurology appears to point to this being true, while the counterargument seems to be "Well it's supposed to be painless." Which I suppose is enough when God's giving the instructions? Since he wouldn't tell people the wrong way to do things.

[Frumple]

I... guess we could always get some of the bigger proponents to, like. Check? Pain et al is a fairly similar process between us and livestock, s'far as I'm aware. At least the initial bit, if not the outright bleeding out and dying. Pretty sure we have the medical technology to keep someone from keeling over to the former, at least, these days. Maybe even normally fatal exsanguination, with some preparation.

Be a metal as hell way to provide an argument for the discussion.

[Reelya]

Before we talk about whether <8 seconds of bleed to unconsciousness is inhumane, we should look at issues in the American system:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://nobull.mikecallicrate.com/2001/01/24/washington-is-investigating-the-ibp-meatpacking-plant-after-a-secretly-shot-video-shows-cows-kicking-while-being-butchered/

WALLULA, Wash. — A clandestine video shot inside the Northwest’s biggest meatpacking plant has alarmed people from as far away as Switzerland and triggered a seven-month investigation by Washington state authorities. The video shows upside-down cows kicking and seemingly struggling to release their hooves from an overhead chain winding through a slaughterhouse near the Tri-Cities. It also shows an electric prod being jammed down a cow’s mouth. Armed with the video and supporting affidavits from 23 workers at the IBP Inc. plant, the San Francisco-based Humane Farming Association asserts that many of the cows that enter the plant are being butchered while they are still conscious.

http://foodrevolution.org/blog/meat-inspectors-speak-out-but-government-doesnt-want-to-hear-them/

“My plant in Pennsylvania processed 1,800 cows a day, 220 per hour,” and veterinarians were pressured “to look the other way” when violations happened Lester Friedlander, DVM, a federal meat inspector told the Winnipeg Free Press. The reason? Stopping “the line” cost the plant about $5,000 a minute. Dr. Friedlander was a USDA veterinarian for 10 years and trained other federal veterinarians. When Mad Cow Disease was first a US threat in 1991, Friedlander says a USDA official told him not to say anything if he ever discovered a case and that he knew of cows that had tested positive at private laboratories but were ruled negative by the USDA. Friedlander told United Press International that the USDA attempted to force him out after he alleged, on national TV, that meat from downer cows supplied the national school lunch program. His charge proved true and led to the biggest meat recall in US history.

http://cok.net/inv/central-valley-meat/

The video, filmed by a COK investigator who worked at the facility in June and July 2012, documents egregious inhumane treatment, improper slaughter methods, and intentional cruelty forced upon these animals in the last moments of their lives:
    Downed cows, unable to walk to the kill floor, shot in the head two, three, even four times, and workers often walking away while the animal continues to struggle and kick.
    Some downed cows who were still alive after being shot in the head were then suffocated by workers who stood on their mouths and nostrils preventing the cows from breathing.
    Cows being tortured – repeatedly hit, jabbed, electrically shocked, and sprayed with hot water – in a narrow chute leading to the kill floor. One cow was electrically shocked over 40 times.
    Sick or injured cows repeatedly being shocked and workers pulling or lifting them by their tails in an attempt to force them to stand and walk.
    Improper stunning of animals prior to slaughter – many cows were thrashing, kicking, and clearly breathing after being shot in the head. Yet these animals are moved through the slaughter process onto a conveyor belt and then hoisted upside-down by one leg.

Sadly, such abuses are not isolated incidents. Numerous undercover investigations inside slaughterhouses throughout the U.S. reveal that animal cruelty is standard practice in the meat industry.

Note, that this facility was contracted to the USDA, has USDA inspectors, but it took a third-party to come in and film conditions before the USDA took it seriously.

They say “the chain” — production line — still moves too fast to give “the knocker” enough time to adequately stun cows senseless with a hand-held device that thrusts a steel bolt into their skulls.

This stuff was going on at least as recently as 2012. USDA give lip service to humane conditions, but they take the side of the meat industry against their own inspectors every time, until something publicly blows up in their faces, at which point they grudgingly press charges against the producer. Until it happens again exactly the same way. So this wonderful "non kosher/halal" American butchery winds up sending live conscious animals down a processing line where they're systematically sliced to bits. At the end if the day, the throat-cutting at least guarantees they are dead before the processing begins. The "stun gun" is lip service to the concept of being humane. Often, it is less effective than the trusty old knife.

[Neonivek]

Whelp I always thought "Forced Diversity" was something that people argued reasonably but some people applied overzealously. Afterall I can think of one or two characters "I" would give that label.

But apparently nope... "Forced" means... Exists.

[Flying Dice]

Also note that cuts made with extremely sharp blades tend to be painless. There's merit to that. It's why you have things like slaughterhouse workers giving themselves massive cuts and not even noticing until they see the blood pooling. Simple compression of the carotid arteries (in human cases) results in unconsciousness in <20s; the butchering process is immediate and total severing of blood flow to the brain combined with loss of pressure in the blood vessels in the brain, with a cut fine enough to not be particularly painful.

If I was going to be butchered, I'd much rather go out like that than in the typical slaughterhouse methods, if only because I'm damned well going to be dead dead dead before they start chopping me up.

[Reelya]

Whelp I always thought "Forced Diversity" was something that people argued reasonably but some people applied overzealously. Afterall I can think of one or two characters "I" would give that label.

But apparently nope... "Forced" means... Exists.

Who does it mean that to?

The concept of "Forced Diversity" to me would mean to shoe-horn "diversity" into something, with all the potential problems that entails. e.g. minorities and women labeled as the "diversity hire" can lose respect (the idea is that they only got in due to a quota, not ability). This can even affect minorities and women who did get in on merit. Say the diversity policy calls for two blacks + two women on your board. If you had two high-scoring black men and two high-scoring women in your intake, then you'd accept those people, and tick off "quotas: filled". A big pat on the back, when you didn't actually do a single thing to help women or black people. All you did was literally tick the box. Now, they would have gotten in even without the quotas, but the mere existence of the quotas can make people assume they got accepted because of that. And since your actual score on any hiring criteria is usually confidential information, it's not easy to escape that stigma.

Sure, it's easy to mislabel all occurrences of things being diverse as "Forced Diversity", but this is merely playing off what I described above, but extending it to a societal level. The mere existence of quotas in one area can tarnish the respect for the subgroup who benefits from the quotas, in other areas of their life, even where quotas don't exist.

[Putnam]

I think it's referring to media, especially fantasy, where, yeah, any non-hetero or non-white characters tend to be accused of being "shoehorned" in.

[Orange Wizard]

To be fair, both sides of the argument complain about that. Or one side complains about both. Something something cake.
The Guardian keeps making articles, for instance, about how they want more diversity in films/video games and then go on about how the women/minorities are dying or being cast as villains or whatever.

[Frumple]

If I was going to be butchered, I'd much rather go out like that than in the typical slaughterhouse methods, if only because I'm damned well going to be dead dead dead before they start chopping me up.

I sorta' get the sentiment, FD, but... honestly, if I'm going to kill you and eat you, what you want matters to me strictly to the extent performing the action would effect the taste and cost of your meat. Maybe some concern regarding the psychological health of whoever butchers you, but... that's about it.

If we're already committed to a campaign of eugenics and butchery (and we're shoved up that further than an unharvested haggis casing), we're pretty far past the point of further concern for the morality of the situation, y'know? Time to start measuring cost efficiency. Y'can attempt to make the argument that at least you're not heaping excess suffering on top of things, but that falls kinda' flat considering what you're doing, heh.

That said, so far as I'm aware the optimal point regarding that sort of heuristic is somewhere (not entirely nailed down, yet -- iirc, there's some pretty big methodology arguments going on right now regarding livestock, not just in regards to best butchery practices) between throat-slitting and chucking them flailing into the grinder, so it's not like there's not still plenty of room to argue for better conditions. Especially if throwing them in live is making a difference regarding the taste or maintenance costs or whatev'.