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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14863636 times)

NJW2000

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97650 on: March 01, 2016, 04:55:04 pm »

Yeah, this guy had a weird attitude to history.

Then you wonder why he thinks communism destroys the individual more than a dictatorship... this from someone who views themselves as a purveyor of common sense, myth-busting and accuracy. People get so weird when they discuss politics.
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97651 on: March 01, 2016, 04:55:44 pm »

He probably just wanted to get you to vote for Trump.
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NJW2000

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97652 on: March 01, 2016, 04:59:50 pm »

This was in Britain. In the United States of Freedom, the story would make some sense, but we only think about Communism in relation to history lessons and ukip memes.

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Sonlirain

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97653 on: March 01, 2016, 05:00:20 pm »

Dictatorships don't necessarily destroy individuality.

Crazy paranoid totalitarian regimes sure but more benevolent authoritarian regimes that follow a "we don't care what you do as long as it's not directed against us" rule don't affect the individual much more than a democracy.
Arguably even less because politicians don't have to fight over votes.
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NJW2000

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97654 on: March 01, 2016, 05:03:31 pm »

I was thinking of the psychological effect of knowing one individual has all the responsibility, ability and power, controlling everything, and that that individual is not you, and never could be.
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i2amroy

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97655 on: March 01, 2016, 05:04:20 pm »

This was in Britain. In the United States of Freedom, the story would make some sense, but we only think about Communism in relation to history lessons and ukip memes.

"With AIDS", because just normal communists aren't horrifying enough! :P
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97656 on: March 01, 2016, 05:07:16 pm »

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MrRoboto75

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97657 on: March 01, 2016, 05:07:43 pm »

This was in Britain. In the United States of Freedom, the story would make some sense, but we only think about Communism in relation to history lessons and ukip memes.

"With AIDS", because just normal communists aren't horrifying enough! :P

Only Nigel can help us!
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97658 on: March 01, 2016, 05:14:07 pm »

This was in Britain. In the United States of Freedom, the story would make some sense, but we only think about Communism in relation to history lessons and ukip memes.

"With AIDS", because just normal communists aren't horrifying enough! :P

Only Nigel can help us!

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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97659 on: March 01, 2016, 05:16:46 pm »

I didn't even know that guy by name...

But IMMEDIATELY knew who he was.

He is at best no nonsense and at worst a bigot :P

But he never fails to entertain. He is like the Glenn Beck of British Politics.
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Tack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97660 on: March 01, 2016, 05:24:34 pm »

I was thinking of the psychological effect of knowing one individual has all the responsibility, ability and power, controlling everything, and that that individual is not you, and never could be.
If someone wants to be the new monarch, then they'd have to be good enough at the job that they could get away with regicide, which would basically mean armed rebellion.
If someone is enough of a demagogue to inspire an armed rebellion, then they're OK to be a dictator in my opinion. If they're shit, we just find a new one.
Just keep doing that until we're out and we have to 'borrow' one from Scotland and then never give them back.


The world would run so much easier with just a Vetinari and Vimes duo.
I wonder if there's a political system based around a White-collar tyrant and a Blue-collar ball and chain.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 05:26:53 pm by Tack »
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97661 on: March 01, 2016, 05:46:26 pm »

Parliamentary democracy with a citizen army as opposed to a mercenary one?
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97662 on: March 01, 2016, 05:47:43 pm »

The world would run so much easier with just a Vetinari and Vimes duo.
Oh it would, so much.  And Carrot.  You cannot forget Carrot.  But with those three, you probably could run the world.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97663 on: March 01, 2016, 05:59:23 pm »

He is kinda right.
If you have 3 guys digging coal at the top of their ability but the strongest one digs 100 kilos/hour the average guy does 50 and the new guy can only do 25... and they all get the same pay it's only a matter of time before efficiency starts droping as the top dog realizes that there is no reason to excel.
Because hey we get the same rations anyway.
I guess it depends a lot on how you define a "perfect" government. A perfect communism, for example, depends on everyone always excelling as hard as they can and finding pleasure in it, just as a "perfect" dictatorship would demand perfect obedience from everyone that is under it.
This. Most people who like to shit-talk communism blatantly don't understand it. Marx's vision is impossible for the same reasons that anarchism, libertarianism, and every other ideology or philosophy that advocates for a totally stateless existence is: power abhors a vacuum, and there will always be someone willing to fill it; the Tragedy of the Commons, as a total lack of regulation and oversight leads to destructive abuse of public goods; and modern society is impossible because so much of it depends on highly organized allocation of training, skilled workers, goods, and capital.

That sort of vision at best is possible for a small (<200-300 people) pre- or sub-industrial community which produces most or all necessary goods within the immediate area and is willing to retain the inaccuracies of a barter system. Moreover, you'd probably need it to be a heavily interrelated set of family-groups--a clan, basically--in order to foster proper emotional attachments throughout. However, that would necessitate inter-community relationships, which would generate conflict one way or another. Communities such as these in open contact with each other would come into conflict over all the things people have always warred over, which would require near-total isolation. But in order to prevent genetic dead-ending from inbreeding, you'd need regular infusions of fresh genes into the community (but in order to avoid having that lead to the aforementioned regular inter-group contact, it'd have to be some fucked up sort of arranged copulation to avoid the problems of inter-community relationships or in-group out-group shunning of spouses). That would require government, even if of a primitive sort, but you'd also need extreme control to keep each individual clan group isolated.

That's the sort of shit you come to when you closely examine the ideal of perfect end-game communism, or any other idealistic vision of a world without government. If you just want to go the "local only" route, you end up with fucking feudalism all over again because things ain't gonna stay in stasis, dumbass. Also no modern technology. If you go the Randian route of pure mentally-disturbed selfishness, you end up with a dead species or a few tens/hundreds of thousands of primitive hunter-gatherers who abhor prolonged interpersonal contact.

States, cultures, societies, social contracts, laws, customs, &c. aren't always nice things. They quite often fuck stuff up. But as I've said before, the alternative is humanity as another failed race. Our ability to work together, to form and operate within social hierarchies with established bodies of tacit knowledge and explicit rules, is a large part of what allowed us to branch off from our simian cousins into what we are today. Other apes use tools. Other apes form social groups. Other apes display critical-thinking skills. Homo sapiens sapiens is the only species to develop complex social contracts and have most individuals demonstrate an ability and willingness to abide by them for the good of a group larger than the self or immediate family.
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #97664 on: March 01, 2016, 06:35:01 pm »

Moreover, you'd probably need it to be a heavily interrelated set of family-groups--a clan, basically--in order to foster proper emotional attachments throughout.
Actually one of Marx's core goals was to revive that emotional attachment in modern man by eliminating the workers' alienation from their work. I'm rather shaky on the details, but there is much more to Marx than the purely economy-focused theory of his late years.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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