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[Jopax]

Today seems to be an opposite of yesterday. It's barely 8 PM and I can hardly keep my eyes open. I think the beer I had after dinner doesn't help but hey, I'm so bored that I might just go to bed this early.

[NJW2000]

Good grief. Number of girls known and met regularly more than doubled.

Advice, kids: don't go to a single-sex school at age 10, and lose contact with the slimy girls in your life. Your future self will hate you.

[Teneb]

For some really stupid reason Civ IV isn't available to purchace on steam on my country. However Civ III AND Civ V are. Don't know why. Is Venezuela by the way.

Ah yes, the joys of South America. It might because Civ4 has something your government dislikes. There are other places you can buy the game at, probably.

[Reelya]

Edit: As a certified right-wing shitlord, I can confirm that GamerGate is not particularly right-wing, sexist, or racist, and their own polls show that it's mostly made up of left-leaning libertarians (that's liberals, for you European types)

I have little interest in GamerGate's politics, but the media reaction was nasty when it attacked gamers as a concept, and it was not grounded in reality.

Studies of American gamers actually show that black and hispanics are over-represented when you look at the people who put the most hours into gaming, and who has the right to call themselves a gamer more than the people who put the most percentage of their time into that one hobby. Whites are actually under-represented. And asians are the least likely to be gamers. Being from a lower socioeconomic group is actually a good predictor of being a gamer. People of privilege actually have the money and social connections to go and do stuff, so gaming seems to be more attractive to those without privilege.

Basically, the raw data contradicts any narrative that gamers as a whole represent white male privilege. That was the media representation of gamers (and they concede that a few of them are asians too). But that stereotype of a predominance of privileged white and asian male gamers does not align with any actual data that exists. I'm not involved in GamerGate, but any blanket backlash against "gamers" as a whole isn't in line with reality.

[NJW2000]

Perhaps an initially established group has the loudest voice by far, as the other groups don't join together to drown it out at all?

[Reelya]

Well, one issue is that the anti-GG media is almost all made of well-off white males, telling "gamers" as a whole that they are the privileged ones. Games journalism reflects white male privilege - it's whiter and wealthier than the general population. Games playing represents disadvantages socioeconomic groups - it's more diverse than the general population.

The games media industry is a lot more homogenous than game players. Go hire more black people and women for your journals, then lecture the rest of us, after that. So, when you get a Sam Biddle preaching his head off about diversity, it sort of rings hollow.

[Neonivek]

Anytime you mention anything about one group being catered to because "They buy it the most" the usual response is "Well maybe if you included them more"

Which has some merit... but has becoming so much a default that it becomes hypocritical.

But that just assumes that they are being catered to overwhelmingly anyhow.

Well, one issue is that the anti-GG media is almost all made of well-off white males, telling "gamers" as a whole that they are the privileged ones. Games journalism reflects white male privilege - it's whiter and wealthier than the general population. Games playing represents disadvantages socioeconomic groups - it's more diverse than the general population.

The games media industry is a lot more homogenous than game players. Go hire more black people and women for your journals, then lecture the rest of us, after that. So, when you get a Sam Biddle preaching his head off about diversity, it sort of rings hollow.

Games get more flack BECAUSE they are more progressive...

 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

because the community of gamers are more open to criticizing their medium and think critically about what they see and play. Games have a much more active audience then TV and Movies.

While at the same time because Games are popular now all the "Pop Sociologists" are now trying to use Games as their social justice platform. Which because games had none before means that even the worst can become a voice.

Yet has this lead to positive change in the gaming industry? HECK NO! It made things far worse.

Think of it this way... The "Modern Progressive Storyline" is someone who is disadvantaged for being a 'minority' goes out to prove that they are just as good as everyone. While the previous one for videogames was that they were just awesome and it was considered an undisputed fact.

Other M as horrifying as it was... is pretty much a glimpse into the future.

Think about it... Other M is pretty much modern day progressive writing VERSUS retro writing for female characters in videogames. Mind you I used Progressive with a very condescending tone, it obviously isn't really progressive... People just apply what is progressive to say a movie (a woman who proves she can be just as good) to a videogame (where women don't need to prove themselves).

So the fact that say... The Elder Scrolls series has had 'black people' in it but never really pointed attention to it beyond giving them their own culture and civilization along with all the other races... Is something old videogames do.

[Neonivek]

because the community of gamers are more open to criticizing their medium and think critically about what they see and play.

Enter Xbox live

Ehhh, I stand by what I said

[NJW2000]

Just realised that I'm building theories on nothing about girls, me, possible correlations, but still can't wipe the smile from my face when I think about it. Past experience show that it'll fail hilariously, but.

[EnigmaticHat]

Games get more flack BECAUSE they are more progressive...

 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

because the community of gamers are more open to criticizing their medium and think critically about what they see and play. Games have a much more active audience then TV and Movies.

While at the same time because Games are popular now all the "Pop Sociologists" are now trying to use Games as their social justice platform. Which because games had none before means that even the worst can become a voice.

Yet has this lead to positive change in the gaming industry? HECK NO! It made things far worse.

Think of it this way... The "Modern Progressive Storyline" is someone who is disadvantaged for being a 'minority' goes out to prove that they are just as good as everyone. While the previous one for videogames was that they were just awesome and it was considered an undisputed fact.

Other M as horrifying as it was... is pretty much a glimpse into the future.

Think about it... Other M is pretty much modern day progressive writing VERSUS retro writing for female characters in videogames. Mind you I used Progressive with a very condescending tone, it obviously isn't really progressive... People just apply what is progressive to say a movie (a woman who proves she can be just as good) to a videogame (where women don't need to prove themselves).

So the fact that say... The Elder Scrolls series has had 'black people' in it but never really pointed attention to it beyond giving them their own culture and civilization along with all the other races... Is something old videogames do.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The average gamer is not progressive at all, TV audiences and writers do way better than gamers and games do when it comes to being progressive.  Like, a LOT.  I don't know what bubble you live in where gamers are open to talking about their medium.  Like forget story quality and progressive issues, people will reliably start flaming each other about HARDWARE discussions.  Think about that for a second.  I will give you that Hollywood movies are possibly worse than games, although they tend to be more polar while games tend to stay in the middle of rarely being great and rarely being awful; I can't think of a single game that would match the progressiveness of, say, Django*, nor could I think of one that drops to the lows of American Sniper (at least not one that achieved mainstream success).  That being said this STILL isn't a defense of gaming because the writers and higher ups in Hollywood have a well earned reputation for having every prejudice imaginable and then paying lip service to being liberal/progressive.

Your examples are... examples I would use to make the opposite point.

I'm... not even going to start on Other M.  I don't think even Nintendo would try to argue that game is progressive.  On any level.  Sometimes things aren't ironic, they aren't making a stealth point.  And to be honest if you do try to make a stealth point and your audience doesn't get it you failed, regardless of how good your intentions are (which they weren't in this case).

As for your "modern progressive storyline", most progressives would define that as the exact opposite.  If you put ____ in a story, it shouldn't be "the story of ___".  It should just be a story.  Arguing that the Other M is progressive because its "the story of a woman fighting prejudice" is ridiculous because even if that's true, it just makes it LESS progressive.

Elder Scrolls is guilty of the same old BS that the entire fantasy genre has been spouting since Tolkien, which is using fantasy races as a way to talk about race without actually including any people of color in your story (this is coming from someone who has read a ton of books and like 90% of them were sci-fi or fantasy).  Granted I believe TES does have some PoC but its no significant number, like I'd probably say something like <1% of the characters in the two that I've played.

*my argument for why Django counts as super progressive is a small text wall unto itself and not as obvious as it might appear

[miauw62]

Hey, you're not alone.

[Rolan7]

AAAAGH I hate Other M so much.
And that's all I have to say about that

[Bouchart]

Everyone hates Other M.  If the game had no voice acting and no plot beyond a page of text or so like Super Metroid, it would have fared much better.  Less is more.

[Harry Baldman]

Elder Scrolls is guilty of the same old BS that the entire fantasy genre has been spouting since Tolkien, which is using fantasy races as a way to talk about race without actually including any people of color in your story (this is coming from someone who has read a ton of books and like 90% of them were sci-fi or fantasy).  Granted I believe TES does have some PoC but its no significant number, like I'd probably say something like <1% of the characters in the two that I've played.

I dunno, Morrowind's definitely full of black people who occasionally are displeased at foreigners tampering with their culture and age-old traditions.

[miauw62]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Redguards basically TES Arabs?

That said, it might not be very relevant.