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[scriver]

I will admit I likely took things too far calling him out like that. But I still stand by my opinion and will even repeat it if asked, since there's no point in attempting to retract it.

And for the most part GC kept saying you shouldn't piss on other peoples happy more than telling people to get out. I think the only time she outright said that sort of thing was when people posted really objectionable content, usually relating to wanting to hurt or actually hurting other people.

It's really not that you said it...  I get that part, and I'm pretty sure he really is a piece of shit.  (Though my only interaction with him, years earlier, was playing some forum games and he seemed fine.  So it's *weird* from my perspective, is all)

But yeah it's not that you said it, it's that there was no response.  I've had several posts deleted that I would totally stand by, but they were too aggressive and I understand why they were deleted.  If that makes sense?

Anyway I don't even dislike Janet.  It's just that things and people get weird when cliques form, even unintentionally.  I think it got out of hand and I hope she doesn't take it too hard, and I do think it'll be good for her in the long run.

Jeezum crow the thread is still moving fast, 7 replies.

For what it's worth I also had posts written up, but decided that possibly starting a fight on the forums over the issue of dragging a personal issue onto the forums was not the kost constructive way to to about things, and I couldn't formulate myself in a way that wasn't possibly infectious at the time.

I am honestly surprised anyone would be surprised lsp got banned. He's been practically begging for toady to ban him for over a year now, and he never posted anything worthwhile to make up for all the shit.
I'm also surprised people are surprised he git banned for racism. I don't think there's many posts of his in the eurothread that isn't loaded with passive aggressive racism.
Edit: oh shit all off the ninjas

When the gloves came off and LSP used punctuation things of quality were born, things such that men dream of.

I strongly disagree.

I can say with confidence that there is nobody in this community who should be given the power to moderate it.

Surely theres a few that can be trusted?

Hah, not a chance. This place is a bad enough echo chamber already.

Yeah I guess you have a point.

Echo chamber confirmed

[Rolan7]

Cos then he'd have to deal with community moderators

Who is he going to trust to do that? What about all the other problems that can entail, as well?

Not really
You set up a team of maybe 3 to be in charge, who vote on their replacements.  Maybe they delegate, maybe that's not necessary here though.
That's how tgstation handled their moderation and coding teams and they mostly turned out okay.  And the "guy in charge" in that case was almost always busy with real life.  And the players needed frequent moderation.

It's not rocket science, it's actually super weird to have just one moderator.  Much less one with a full time job...

The only benefit to this system is that I feel guilty about posting anything controversial, because I may be delaying the next version of DF.

I can say with confidence that there is nobody in this community who should be given the power to moderate it.

Maybe pick a few people who seem mostly level-headed, keep their identities a secret, and ban them if they abuse their power?

Also limiting powers to temp-mutes and thread locking would be a good idea.

Yeah see, then you'd just swap from modding forum to modding mods

Also 99% certain that this would turn into reddit where everyone agrees with one another because the ones who didn't were disappeared and newcomers overcompensate to fit in

Uh
This almost IS that latter thing, and it's because when someone posts a strong dissenting opinion, there's a good chance the discussion gets heated and deleted.  At which point people decide "oh it's that kind of community" and leave.
With some actual personhours it's possible to run an actual warning/ban system instead of the "Awaken the sleeping god-developer, get deleted or banned" nonsense.

Handling an out of control moderator is a lot easier than doing it by hand, this is kinda ridiculous to be honest :/

Also reddit has echochamber subreddits, yeah, those are the ones you shouldn't visit.  Why would you visit those.  Go to the ones that aren't dumb.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I can say with confidence that there is nobody in this community who should be given the power to moderate it.

Surely theres a few that can be trusted?

Hah, not a chance. This place is a bad enough echo chamber already.

Yeah I guess you have a point.

Echo chamber confirmed

You're right scriver, I should be made moderator. MetalSlimeHunt 2015!

[Aklyon]

Go to the ones that aren't dumb.

Usually the ones that aren't dumb are the ones you can't find, though. Thats why they aren't dumb subreddits.

[Helgoland]

Also, wasn't LSP's personal text literally "all hail the fuhrer", except in German?  Dude was shitposting a lot, antagonistically even.  Maybe he should have listened to the warnings.

I do recall LSP commenting on the personal text:

i've been meaning to change it into something else but i had no decent ideas

so i just converted the original into fraktur

now it's so edgy the bfv must be keeping tabs on me, heh

So I don't think so, but I didn't read LSP's text before it got wiped. Maybe Helgo remembers

Yeah, he wrote that in response to a question of mine. It was 'To our beloved Führer', so yeah, 2edgy4me. AFAIK he's German, and fairly anti-immigrant (which is a minority but wide-spread sentiment around here), but honestly he wasn't worse than LW in that regard. If Toady banned him for shitposting, he should at least be honest about it - any "racist URL" must've been a case of 2edgy as well. I strongly disagreed with LSP's views on this issue, but what he usually wrote wasn't even close to banworthy.

If anyone's got contact details for the guy, please shoot me a PM. I'd hate to lose contact.

[EnigmaticHat]

Surely theres a few that can be trusted?

The problem with community moderators isn't right when they get appointed.  Its just, you can't trust several random people on the internet with power in the long term.  Toady would have to become a moderator to moderators, basically.  It would be less work, but it would also be less precise because he can't be 100% sure who his appointed goons have decided is worthy of a beating.  And also because moderators are capable of influencing other mods and the forumites and would slowly shift things more and more their way as time went on.

I think Toady's moderation is good.  He isn't anonymous, he actually does have a stake in it (seeing as how this forum's success is arguably tied to his game's success), and he isn't a regular poster so he has distance.

[Baffler]

Cos then he'd have to deal with community moderators

Who is he going to trust to do that? What about all the other problems that can entail, as well?

Not really
You set up a team of maybe 3 to be in charge, who vote on their replacements.  Maybe they delegate, maybe that's not necessary here though.
That's how tgstation handled their moderation and coding teams and they mostly turned out okay.  And the "guy in charge" in that case was almost always busy with real life.  And the players needed frequent moderation.

It's not rocket science, it's actually super weird to have just one moderator.  Much less one with a full time job...

The only benefit to this system is that I feel guilty about posting anything controversial, because I may be delaying the next version of DF.

I usually stay out of controversial discussions because I know that if people respond poorly to my disagreeing with them (which is not unheard of here, no matter what we tell ourselves) I will be blamed for starting a fight and get into some shit. I've been banned from another forum for exactly that, and I actually care about my presence here.

[Frumple]

Maybe we as a people just need to stop taking things seriously

... or at least be conscientious about sticking to the forum guidelines. That's really about all it takes to keep from getting banned.

And @Ro, Toady almost always gives several mutes/warnings before bans happen. Lsp got hit with those before now, and what resulted in his ban was actions immediately following an in-thread warning to tone things back. Toady only occasionally does the god-from-on-high insta-smite thing.

Really, it's... not actually that hard to present a dissenting opinion, or have things get heated/impassioned. You mostly just need to avoid attacking other posters (part of which is to avoid engaging with other posters that attack you, by the by -- saying your peace and then dropping the conversation is occasionally a thing you need to do) or going straight to the overt bigotry.

[Loud Whispers]

Not really
You set up a team of maybe 3 to be in charge, who vote on their replacements.  Maybe they delegate, maybe that's not necessary here though.
That's how tgstation handled their moderation and coding teams and they mostly turned out okay.  And the "guy in charge" in that case was almost always busy with real life.  And the players needed frequent moderation.

Doesn't answer who 3 to pick

It's not rocket science, it's actually super weird to have just one moderator.  Much less one with a full time job...

This aint no normal forum

The only benefit to this system is that I feel guilty about posting anything controversial, because I may be delaying the next version of DF.

Oh shit, that is some next level horror
Shitposting could be halting DF development

Uh
This almost IS that latter thing, and it's because when someone posts a strong dissenting opinion, there's a good chance the discussion gets heated and deleted.  At which point people decide "oh it's that kind of community" and leave.

Plenty of people post strong dissenting opinions, I've seen few leave for them. I've seen a reactionary, a zionist and an SJW get banned but it wasn't for their strong dissenting opinions, it's because they were personally attacking other forum users. Probably poor examples, but the point is you can take any extreme stance and people do even if it's controversial and gets heated. Like our heated conversation may have contributed to LSP getting rekt, but I doubt either one of us is going to be any less vocal in our opinions. Maybe more polite
Community mods are different, they're not aloof like Toady - they've got a much more vested interest in how the forums run and which way they point

With some actual personhours it's possible to run an actual warning/ban system instead of the "Awaken the sleeping god-developer, get deleted or banned" nonsense.

Subject to community mod judgements. Cue the railing against community mods because THAT BAN WAS UNFAIR MODS UNDO PLS

Also reddit has echochamber subreddits, yeah, those are the ones you shouldn't visit.  Why would you visit those.  Go to the ones that aren't dumb.

Why would you use reddit at all

[itisnotlogical]

I was a member of the Within Hubris forum, which had basically zero moderation to begin with. We voted a community mod into place, which basically meant that we picked a popular shitposter (and one other person who was barely ever active) to be in charge of moderating the entire site. After much playing of favorites, rampant shitposting and the original owner of the forum basically saying "I quit, do what you want", the whole operation was shut down by police after death threats were made in a thread.

[Helgoland]

I doubt either one of us is going to be any less vocal in our opinions. Maybe more polite

Hah, as if. remove nationalist REMOVE NATIONALIST

[Flying Dice]

I can say with confidence that there is nobody in this community who should be given the power to moderate it.

Ye gods, this. I'm fond of a lot of you folks, but there's no way in hell I'd trust anyone around here to adjudicate anywhere near as well as Toady does, myself most certainly included.

For what it's worth, I can't think of a single genuinely rage-inducing forum-related experience I've had that wasn't instigated by community moderators. It's also made up a not-insubstantial portion of my terrible experiences in multiplayer games. Fact is, most people don't handle power well, and it's made even worse when they're personally invested in the thing they're supposed to be moderating.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the major factors contributing to B12 being by far the least shitty place I've hung around on the internet is the way it's moderated.

[Loud Whispers]

the whole operation was shut down by police

ahahahahahahahahhahahaha

I doubt either one of us is going to be any less vocal in our opinions. Maybe more polite

Hah, as if. remove nationalist REMOVE NATIONALIST

To be honest in the unlikely event I was offered com mod I'd turn it down simply because it'd mean I wouldn't be able to remove kraut REMOVE KRAUT you are the STINK MERKEL go back to YOG-SOHOTH

[Baffler]

the whole operation was shut down by police

ahahahahahahahahhahahaha

Not just b&, but v& as well?

I can say with confidence that there is nobody in this community who should be given the power to moderate it.

Ye gods, this. I'm fond of a lot of you folks, but there's no way in hell I'd trust anyone around here to adjudicate anywhere near as well as Toady does, myself most certainly included.

For what it's worth, I can't think of a single genuinely rage-inducing forum-related experience I've had that wasn't instigated by community moderators. It's also made up a not-insubstantial portion of my terrible experiences in multiplayer games. Fact is, most people don't handle power well, and it's made even worse when they're personally invested in the thing they're supposed to be moderating.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the major factors contributing to B12 being by far the least shitty place I've hung around on the internet is the way it's moderated.

I don't think I'd accept either. Running a small thread, maybe. A board? No. Even if I don't go mad with power I simply don't have the time, and would probably let things stand that really shouldn't have.

[Orange Wizard]

Let's resurrect GWG and make him the lower boards moderator.