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[Helgoland]

Newly emerging middle class, actually. People with money, but without land or title.

[scriver]

That's irrelevant. I only wanted to clarify that you were using it in a pre-liberalism sense rather than a post-liberalism sense, as NJW appeared to me to have misunderstood the connotations.

[Helgoland]

Oh yeah, he was using 'bourgeoisie' in the Marxist sense

Tangentially related: Don't you think its a shame that there's so few low-/medium-fantasy works taking place during the early phase of the industrial revolution? The only thing that comes to mind is the Discworld series, and even that is sort of dubious...

[Arx]

Oh yeah, he was using 'bourgeoisie' in the Marxist sense

Tangentially related: Don't you think its a shame that there's so few low-/medium-fantasy works taking place during the early phase of the industrial revolution? The only thing that comes to mind is the Discworld series, and even that is sort of dubious...

I don't know what you call China Miéville, but Perdido Street Station and related works are early-mid industrial. Particularly Iron Council and some other one I can't remember offhand.

[NJW2000]

The entire Bas-Lag series, for one:

So far there have been three novels set in Bas-Lag. They are:

    Perdido Street Station
    The Scar
    Iron Council

Additionally, the short story "Jack", featured in the 2005 collection Looking for Jake, is a Bas-Lag story.

Though I'd say China Mieville is Steampunk. Rather than fantasy. And probably High Steampunk at that (if that's a thing, like High Fantasy or high-concept sci-fi, though I know the two don't map onto each other directly.)

[Arx]

Yeah, The Scar is the one I couldn't think of.

And Miéville is definitely fantasy. Acid-trip fantasy, maybe, but fantasy.

[scriver]

Oh yeah, he was using 'bourgeoisie' in the Marxist sense

Post-liberalism sense. When the bourgeoisie had gone from being simply the burgher class of the cities to being the new upper class. It is not any more "Marxist" than using the word "capital" to refer to wealth (in whatever form) is Marxist.

Tangentially related: Don't you think its a shame that there's so few low-/medium-fantasy works taking place during the early phase of the industrial revolution? The only thing that comes to mind is the Discworld series, and even that is sort of dubious...

Yes. There is the Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick Obscura in the video game department, I suppose. Most settings in the vein of that period tend to devolve into steampunk, though, of which there certainly are heaps. So I assume you meant something dissimilar to that.

Of course, it's not particularly strange. Depicting what is probably the darkest, most opressively depressing time period in European history isn't exactly uplifting. So we get those loads of escapist steam-hyper-optimism steampunk settings instead.

My favourite fantasy book, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel takes place during the Napoleonic wars, though, which is almost industrial age. So it deserves a mention, even if it's not strictly relevant.

[Helgoland]

Post-liberalism sense.

I'd rather not think of our age as a post-liberal one

I'll check out the book you mentioned - the Napoleonic age is fairly close to what I want, actually.

[scriver]

Post-liberalism sense.

I'd rather not think of our age as a post-liberal one

I'll check out the book you mentioned - the Napoleonic age is fairly close to what I want, actually.

This is the age of neo-liberalism, in which everything the socialist movement build up is being torn down and shat upon. We can have neo-liberalism without having gone post liberalism in the first place.

(Author is Susanna Clarke, by the way. It is written in a faux-19th century/romanticism pastiche style, so it can be a bit heavy to read. I you find it tedious in the beginning I would definitely suggest you keep reading at least until Jonathan Strange is introduced, that's when I found it to start coming into it's own.)

[GiglameshDespair]

Goodness

Honestly I am starting to want to beat up the first person to ever spout the term "Magic Versus Technology"

Since the more I see it, the more I notice that it relies ENTIRELY on connotations that take place entirely outside the setting and otherwise makes absolutely no sense.

Watching this "Total Annihilation Kingdoms" Letsplay and the Creon are basically all Into technology and HATE magic. Yet they constantly spout on and on about how they destroy superstition and use logic.

Yet... here is kind of the thing
1) Magic in this setting is not an unknowable force, nor one that is learned strictly through some form of spiritualism. It is usually learned through academic study.
and
2) It isn't SUPERSTITION when these things are REAL!!! Dragons, Centaurs, and Merfolk are real living beings you can see with your eyes... This shouldn't be that hard.

It forces this whole theme of magic versus technology but it never establishes anything solid for this to work. HECK the factions aren't even inherently magical anyhow (well except two), the game pretty strongly establishes that only the nobility really have access to magic and even then the majority of their armies aren't even magical. People don't cook food with spells in this setting.

And no they aren't meant to be hypocrites, I am not missing some theme. They really are supposed to be these bastions of logic and destroyers of superstition...

Just because some things are doesn't mean they all are. That kind of world will be awash in superstition that isn't true as well. Look at how many different myths and creatures our world had and they don't even exist - people are going to think of gremlins behind every door and an elf in every pot.

So establishing what is true and not - how much if magic is actually ritual and mummery - could provide a base for that sort of logical thinking.

Eh. At the end of the day it's not really worth worrying about too much.

[NJW2000]

Steampunk isn't always escapist, it actually seems to rejoice in the opression, social inequality and restriction.

e.g. Mieville, Bioshock, The Order 1884 (groan), etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------
My wtf: I went to the dentist for some small fillings and a varnish and stuff, and felt no real pain or discomfort at all. So this is what becoming an adult feels like

Also, my teeth won't meet properly, which is fine, but I can't eat for a hour, so of course I'm starving, despite sometimes going 6 hours or so without food without any major discomfort.

[Arx]

My wtf: I went to the dentist for some small fillings and a varnish and stuff, and felt no real pain or discomfort at all. So this is what becoming an adult feels like

You lucky sod. I can get a shot of anesthetic, start not-quite-screaming when the dentist tries to drill, get another shot of anesthetic, and still have to fight back the urge to scream. And the anesthetics hurt like hell, too. This is just for small fillings as well, mind.

I don't like dentists.

[Rose]

Dresden files handles it by simply having the magic cause problems with technology. The smaller the parts required for something to function, the more magic messes it up.

[Calidovi]

Summoning Umaru-Chan

[scriver]

Steampunk isn't always escapist, it actually seems to rejoice in the opression, social inequality and restriction.

e.g. Mieville, Bioshock, The Order 1884 (groan), etc.

Which does not preclude it from being escapism, or even hyper-optimism (which might sound contradictory). It would all be down to how such things are depicted in the work. As I have read or played none of those things you listed (Weren't Bioshock some kind of retro-cyber-punk anyway, or something?) I can't really comment on them in particular.

But yes, of course steampunk isn't necessarily escapist (and neither is escapist works "bad" by default), but the bulk of the genre definitely is.